1816: America's First Case of Murder by Counseling

You are listening to One Nation Under Crime, A Chronological True Crime Podcast. Each week we go through our nation's history and discuss one case from each year, starting in 1800. I'm Kayla... 

Leah  

00:00:13

And I'm Leah. 

Kayla  

00:00:14

And couple things right at the top. We'll start with the happy part first. 

Leah  

00:00:23

We want happy. 

Kayla  

00:00:24

Yes. And we said it at the beginning of our last episode. So we want to give you something it's completely free. You, we just need two minutes of your day to do something for us and it will make our day amazing. So you're already listening to us in your favorite podcatcher at the moment. So go give us a five-star review and leave a compliment. Funny joke, confess to your undying love for one or both of us or for the podcast mascots. We always accept those as well. 

Leah  

00:00:56

Cause we have undying love for them. 

Kayla  

00:00:59

Screenshot your review and send it to us. I'll just need your address. Just so you know, it's private. I'm not going to put your address into any database and not come stalking. No. And if you'll just screenshot your review, send it to me, through Twitter, Instagram, email, and just put your address in there. Then you will be the owner of a super cool weatherproof, life proof, dishwasher, proof fade-proof ONUC sticker. One of those things might not be true. I'll let you figure out when you get it. 

Leah  

00:01:31

You'll be part of the cool club. 

Kayla  

00:01:33

Yes. You all ready are here now. So just a few clicks and you are done. You can even pause this right now and you can go ahead and go do it and go ahead and already send it to me and it'll be great and you'll have a sticker and you will get it. And it's awesome. 

Leah  

00:01:48

And that's her way of saying Leah, no theme music. Again, she takes away all of my fun. 

Kayla  

00:01:53

Well, you know, some of us have to keep us on schedule. Before we dive into the case this week, we are going to go into the second part of what we have from when I said we have a couple of things at the top. Here's here's the second part. I'm putting a content warning right here. 

Leah  

00:02:14

Wow. Wow. 

Kayla  

00:02:16

I am labeling this as a medium level Trigger Warning episode. There is a reason. There will be small trigger warnings throughout because there will be some quotes and in-depth discussion of certain things, but there are going to be heavy discussions of suicide. Not only are we going to discuss a case from 1816, but it also connects to a case from 2014, I'm giving you this warning now because we will talk about this topic heavily, including terminology. As always, never in a disrespectful way. 

Kayla  

00:02:57

It is more of... It's information that people do need to know because we will discuss, you know, different ways of discussing this topic in general and the reasons why we do that. But I understand that is a very heavy topic for some people. And if you are one of those people just stop. I mean, not that anybody's really comfortable listening to it, but you know, for some people it can just be more triggering for others. So yes, it is a major part of the episode this week. As you can tell by the name of this episode, it is called murder by counseling, the case of George Bowen from 1816. 

Kayla  

00:03:41

This is the very first case where someone is charged by murder, by counseling in the United States. And so we are going to go through that. If that is a no-go for you, we will see you next week. We love you guys too much to cause any harm to your mental health. 

Leah  

00:04:02

Yes. 

Kayla  

00:04:02

If it's an especially sensitive topic to you personally, we completely understand, and we don't want you to put yourself through any mental anguish in continuing listening. So if you've got to go, you can go ahead and do that now. And we will see you guys next week and I promise it will not be such a heavy topic and we love you. So we will see, we will see you guys then if not, then we're going to get in. If you're here and you want to stay, then we're going to get into it. Our sources for this week, I got two separate articles from boston.com. This is a case that takes place in Massachusetts. So that's where a vast majority of things that we're going to discuss come from. So I had two articles from boston.com, one article from the Boston magazine Britannica, always a good site. 

Kayla  

00:04:48

And then the Historical Journal of Massachusetts from Westfield State University. I got a lot of information on our actual case today from this it's it's 18 pages long. 

0  

00:05:02

It was very well-written. It had a lot of really good information. So our information is pretty heavy from that that text the events in 1816, April 11th, the African Methodist Episcopal church was established in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania by Richard Allen. And it is the first such denomination, completely independent of white churches. So I thought that was very interesting. And let's see, April 27th, the Dallas tariff was passed by Congress, which sought to protect American manufacturing against an influx of cheaper British goods. 

0  

00:05:45

Following the war of 1812, Hmm. May 11th. The American Bible society was founded in New York city. In June of this year, Fort Dearborn was rebuilt in the same location after it was burned down, which is what we discussed in episode. I believe 14 August <inaudible> no, no, no, no, no. That's the Chicago case because they had burned down the Fort in like 10 minutes, there was a battle and it burnt out in 10 minutes. So this was the year that it was actually officially rebuilt and reestablish my bed. August 24th, the treaty of St. Louis was signed in St. Louis, Missouri. This, this was a treaty that was signed. 

0  

00:06:27

I believe it's Ninian Edwards. I don't know a weird name. I can't tell you William Clark. We know him Lewis and Clark and August Chateau for the U S and representatives of the council of three fires were the other signers of this treaty. This treaty was essentially the native Americans relinquishing all rights to land that was previously seated to the U S by the SAC and Fox tribes. The treaty also seeded a 20 mile strip of land to the us that connected Chicago and lake Michigan with the Illinois river, a November James Monroe defeated Rufus king in the us presidential election. 

0  

00:07:12

The loved the name, Rufus Rufus adult name November 7th. Jonathan Jennings is inaugurated as the first governor of Indiana December 2nd, the first savings bank in the United States open named the Philadelphia savings fund society. And December 11th, a very special birthday in this household for one very sassy Sagittarius. She will be seven. This year, Indiana was admitted as the 19th state to the U S nice. So some undated events for this year. This was actually one thing that I almost discussed. 

0  

00:07:55

It was weather related. I didn't find it to anyways, 18, 16 was known as the year without a summer in north America. There were widespread unseasonal weather phenomenon and crop failure. Like there was frost in July. Whoa, that kind of weird. So while we are not debating that climate changes and actual thing, it is, I mean, there, there is. There's scientific proof of client climate change. I'm just saying 1816. Wasn't doing so hot either. Literally not doing so hot. Cause there was frost in July. So who knows. And then before that we had the major migration of squirrels. 

0  

00:08:38

Things are just, this is not a good time. This is not a good time for anybody pigeons, pigeon. Yeah. The pigeons were floating on top of their squirrels. Did you know that Ida made the Mississippi flow in the opposite direction? I did see something that I thought I've got to tell her, continue. The second bank of the United States obtained its charter and he Remington and sons was founded. I think it just think it's in, it was founded. I think it's in eilean or Elion New York. This is the firearm company that also later became a type writing manufacturer. 

0  

00:09:19

Hmm. Interesting. So our births in eighteen sixteen, one of the most notable was March 14th. It was William Marsh, rice and American businessmen who founded rice university in Houston, Texas, all of his money. When he passed, went to fund the university, he is also going to come back in an episode later on because he's murdered you. We might be discussing him later on. I think it's in 1900, but a university came out of that merger. So that's yeah, that's a silver lining. 

0  

00:10:00

I mean, burner is bad, but at least something good came out again. Again, I'm Pollyanna blood life lessons from Leah murders, bad deaths deaths in 1816, August 12th, Mary Catherine Goddard. She was a publisher and a postmistress 11 former postmistress. We do, we do. She is the second printer to print the declaration of independence. And it was the first print with all of the names of the signers included. 

0  

00:10:40

Claire is very, very into being a part of this week's episode. She's she's weirdly enough in my lap and I don't know why, cause I wouldn't let her up on the desk. And so she tried, you know, also back to a cause just for consistency. William Marshall rice was a Pisces. I forgot that part. And look, Hey, people have said stuff about it. They like it. So I just, I don't want to let the people down September 18th, Bernard mock Mon Scottish, hi Scottish murders, which is a fantastic podcast that you should go listen to if you don't already. 

0  

00:11:21

But Bernard McMann, I had to look up how to say that because it's not how it's written. He was a horticulturalist and he was one of the plant collectors from the Lewis and Clark expedition. Interesting. He died. So correct. So onto this week's case, November 8th, 1815, Jonathan Jewitt completed suicide the day before he was scheduled to be hanged for the murder of his father, September 19th, 1816, George Bowen's trial for the murder of Jonathan Jewett began in north Hampton, Massachusetts, July 13th, 2014, Conrad Roy, the third completed suicide via carbon monoxide poisoning in his truck, June 16th, 2017, Michelle Carter, I'm putting this in quotes, quote, girlfriend of Conrad, Roy. 

0  

00:12:17

The third was convicted of involuntary manslaughter. These events collectively lead to the first case in known legal history of an indictment or a formal charge of murder based upon counseling. So like I said, when I said that this is, this is discussion of how this is happening. This is, this is the first case where this happened. It relates to a case that happened 200 years later in the same state, which is fairly odd. And 

1  

00:12:49

It to say 2000, yeah, 

0  

00:12:52

2014. Yes, 2000. And this was a very, you, Leah might have even heard of this case. It was very big when it came out and we'll discuss more into it. And once I get into it, if y'all don't know those names, a lot of people do know the name of Michelle Carter. Unfortunately, when people really should remember Conrad, Roy, but you will know who she is. And if any of you are thinking I'm all right in the mood for a half second here, if any of y'all are thinking Michelle Carter, is she the one with the eyebrows? Yes. That is the one you were thinking of. You are correct. That is there. 

1  

00:13:28

Let me get my phone out and Google. It is. Yeah, 

0  

00:13:32

You'll have to look up. You'll have to look up when she was in court originally. Yes. Just look up Michelle Carter eyebrows. 

1  

00:13:46

Is she 

0  

00:13:48

An athlete? No. Okay. Cause that's what's coming up. No, Michelle Carter. 

1  

00:13:52

Oh no, it even has maims. Oh, how unfortunate. 

0  

00:13:58

So that was when she was first in court. It gets better. I mean like they turned down 

1  

00:14:05

Large forehead. Yes. Y'all I'm not a main person, but she does have a, quite the large forehead and says she has a lot of rain for, for her eyebrows too. They're very 

0  

00:14:19

Dark. So our case this week is in north Hampton. It is the county seat of Hampshire county and west central Massachusetts. The town was granted its charter in 1654 and became officially incorporated as the city of north Hampton in 1884. The area was originally known as NONOTAK, which is an Algonquin word, meaning middle of the river. This is fitting since the city is on the Connecticut river, 17 miles north, Northwest of Springfield, Massachusetts. The area eventually became a self-sufficient farming community likely thanks to the available water source, which I think is really cool that they became a self-sufficient farming community. 

0  

00:15:07

And they're very, very widely known for it. If you are an avid ONUC fan, which you should be, everyone should, you will remember. North Hampton came up in our 1805 episode on James Halligan and Dominick daily. This north Hampton is where the men were hanged after being wrongfully convicted of a crime. This was the case where both of the men were Irish Catholic and like, you know, 5,000 people came and the nice believe it was the Bishop or priest was the one who shamed them into leaving. That is this case in north Hampton. 

0  

00:15:49

So the city today actually has a really well established music scene and active filmmaking community and is home to the oldest continuously running agricultural fair in the United States. That's cool. So the movie, there are a few movies that have, that have been well, first of all. So yes, there are a lot of movies who have been, that have been made in this area. A lot of movies made in Massachusetts in general, which can you blame them? No. The movie edge of darkness was filmed in north Hampton in October of 2008, other films that were filmed there, the cider house rules, malice with Nicole Kidman and Alec Baldwin in dreams with Annette Bening and Robert Downey Jr. 

0  

00:16:36

And we love RTJ and yes, Sylvia with Gwyneth Paltrow, which Sylvia was a lot of people may not know about that, but she, she had multiple personalities. It's a very interesting, it's interesting movie. I have feelings about with Patrick. Anyways. Some have feelings about a lot of things. Anyways, I saw one of those articles where they talk about like things about celebrities and stuff like that. And there was one person who said that they ran, they were a camp counselor at a summer camp for kids that were like celebrities, kids. And that most of the, like all of the parents always tips the counselors at the end of the summer because they're there all summer. 

0  

00:17:25

And these it's not like these families don't have, you know, and she would never tip any of the camp counselors or, or anything like that. I don't know if that's true. I don't know. There's just, she's interesting. I did like her in the show with Ben Platt. I did like her in that, in the politician. I did like her in that. I just, I don't know some of the things on like goop and stuff like that. I just I'm like, you act like everybody has. Oh, 

1  

00:17:59

And the names, the names of the candle scents are horrible. Horrible. 

0  

00:18:04

Yeah. They're pretty bad. So some notable people from north Hampton, Leah will know this one, Eric Carl 

1  

00:18:15

Passed away recently. 

0  

00:18:17

That was sad. The writer of the very hungry caterpillar among other yes. 

1  

00:18:22

Wonderful, 

0  

00:18:23

Wonderful books. Kevin Eastman and Peter layered comic book artists and writers and co publishers of the teenage mutant ninja turtles. Awesome. So Joran truce, which a lot of people should know. She was an abolitionist in order. She did. It's not clear if she's from there or if she just lived there for a short amount of time, I found conflicting, conflicting things on that. Sylvester Graham, the namesake of the Graham cracker Chris Collingwood of the band fountains of Wayne. Do you know who fountains of Wayne is? 

1  

00:19:00

I'm going to have to say no. 

0  

00:19:04

You'll know the song Stacy's mom. So he is from, she's got to go into this then. And every time I think of which is funny, cause the next person coming up, their last name's Coolidge, I think a Jennifer Coolidge every time cause Jennifer Coolidge was Stiffler his mom and American pie. And that was one of the songs. So anyways, love Jennifer Coolidge. She's so funny. So Calvin Coolidge, 30th president of the United States, Rachel Maddow, who a lot of people know she is an MSNBC host and John Carpenter. 

0  

00:19:51

He is the first top prize winner on who wants to be a millionaire. I just thought it was interesting. I mean, everybody remember I liked the weakest link. The weakest link was just weakest. You are the weakest link. Goodbye always liked that show up. He wants to be a millionaire was always interesting too. We had a lot of really good game shows that just disappeared. Yeah. What was don't forget. The lyrics was my favorite with Wayne Brady. My husband 

1  

00:20:25

Was not good at that. Ugh. I 

0  

00:20:27

Was, I loved that show. 

1  

00:20:29

There was a show that was set in the Hamptons. The, they were breathers and was a doctor. It was Hank bed was their business. Can't think of the name of it. It was a really good show. It was on like USA or something. It was really 

0  

00:20:43

You're talking about Royal pains. Pains. Yeah. I'm very shocked. I remember that. But that was a good show that it was a great show because that was also when burn notice burn notice is a very good show. I think it was a USA show is a very good show that came out around that same time. A lot of really good shows, but yeah, 

1  

00:21:03

And it was all about the Hamptons and the headlight, all this money to spare and it was like a concierge doctor, like they came to you 

0  

00:21:11

For sure. So it was a good trip. Yes. 

1  

00:21:13

If you haven't watched that go back and watch it. It's really good. 

0  

00:21:16

That's a lot of information for this case. Like I said before, came from the Historical Journal from Westfield state university. And before we start with George Bowen, we have to start with Jonathan Jewett. He was convicted of murdering his father and he was sentenced to death. The Hampshire Gazette said quote, his life of wickedness and folly had been rashly terminated by his own hands. The coroners were quote, unable to ascertain by whose aid he was enabled to rest from the arm of justice of his forfeited life. Jewitt took his own life by hanging himself in his cell from the bars on November 8th, 1815, which was the night before he was scheduled to be executed. 

1  

00:22:05

We know for sure that he did murder his dad. Yes. Okay. I'm just saying 

0  

00:22:11

Yes it is. I briefly looked into his case. There's not a lot of information. We will find out why there's not a lot of information, but it is known there, there were witnesses. There were, there were a lot of things. It would not, anyways, it would not surprise me. And we'll, we'll, we'll get into it. Here's a TRIGGER WARNING. I'm going to go ahead. Like I said, there's little trigger warnings here and there because there are some descriptions. If you thought maybe I can tough it out through the episode. I did put tiny little trigger warnings here and there just in case. So here's one, the sheriff found him dangling by a rope tied to the great of the jail window. And that's, that's the extent that that goes. 

0  

00:22:51

I just like to kind of give one still a little bit more graphic part just because, I mean, you know, I was just a little George Bowen was Jewett's neighbor in the jail. Bowen had been convicted of petty larceny. This is theft of personal property with a value less than a legally specified amount today it's referred to as misdemeanor theft and it's the theft of less than $500. Okay. Bowen convinced you to complete suicide instead of having the humiliation of a public hanging because of this, the sheriff and the hanged man were not paid for their fees for their services. 

0  

00:23:30

And it was kind of an F-you to them like we'll and we'll see why Bowen was known to be rebellious and a troublemaker in the jail. And it seems that Bowen found a bit of pleasure and kind of shaking things up. He sounds kind of a page. Yeah. Sounds like a page. You will find out more. His actions led to this case, having two murder convictions, like two murder charges against him. One of them being against Jewitt for quote, I'm putting this in quotes, we'll go into it in a bit for quote, committing suicide and the other Tubo and for counseling him in the suicide, this didn't charge Bowen as an accessory to murder, but an actual participant and we'll get into more legalities of that later. 

0  

00:24:19

Legal scholar, John Dee Lawson has noted this as one of the most important and interesting criminal trials in American history. So let's get through some terminology and a few phrases that we're going to hear. First, we have the term of suicide. Like I said, again, guys, we are taught. These are important things that do need to be discussed. We'll get more into it, but this is the death caused by injuring oneself. With the intent to end your own life assisted suicide is the suicide of a patient suffering from an incurable disease affected by taking by the taking of lethal drugs, provided by a doctor for this purpose, you may be thinking of like Dr. 

0  

00:25:10

Kevorkian, that was someone who, and that it's also referred to as doctor assisted suicide, but it is, and there are, I think it's called their a right to die states in the United States where if you do, you have a terminal illness and you do choose, you know, I don't want to, I can't go through, I don't want to suffer. I can't like, you know, because there are some things that are very, very, very, you know, not that anybody wants to go through a terminal illness, but there are some terminal illnesses that are much worse than others and there is not a cure and there is an end, you know? And so some, some states will be called right to die states. 

0  

00:25:50

And that is a state where you can consult with a doctor to voluntarily and it's done in a medical setting. It is done, you know, but so like I said, we kind of have to go through a few of these things just so we can thing. Then we have the terms of murder by counseling, which is what this is, this case is about. Or it's also referred to as inciting suicide. This is when one individual convinces or coerces another to end their life. And the second party completes that suicide. In more recent years, you might've heard the term committing suicide, being slowly excluded from these types of conversations. 

0  

00:26:32

There is a reason why, and it does make a lot of sense. So just to let you all know, like the PC term is not committing suicide, that is not at all. And there is a reason. And like I said, Leah doesn't know what I researched before I get into this, but I know Leah will agree when I get to certain parts of it because we both have mental health, you know, things that we've dealt with in our lives, we have issues and it makes, I mean, issues, issue. There they are, we are dealing with them, but I just don't want other people to think they have issues. It's not an issue. It is something we're joking. 

0  

00:27:12

But so this is a term that is being excluded from these types of conversations. Because when you think of the word committed your brain, associates it with a crime or a sin, depending on your beliefs, someone committed a robbery, they committed a murder. They committed a sin, but suicide in the United States is not a crime. Now it used to be, and there are other countries that it is a crime, but we, we don't have time to get into that. The term committed also doesn't include the fact that there could be underlying issues or illness, which was not addressed while the person was living, which is also a major issue. 

0  

00:27:58

These things could range from post-traumatic stress, depression, anxiety, to major trauma. As we have discussed in previous episodes before mental health is health period, there is no mental health is just as important as your physical health because mental health can lead to physical manifestations of other issues, which I mean, like not digging things, but Leah is, is aware of that. You lost a tremendous amount of weight at one point from not eating because she could not eat. Physically could physically hurt me. And so, you know, a lot of times mental illness will, will produce physical effects as well. 

0  

00:28:38

That are, that are very, I have my stuff. 

1  

00:28:41

I'm convinced that I had a tumor in my stomach, like could not eat, but it was anxiety and depression, like have myself convinced that it's the stomach tumor. Yeah, 

0  

00:28:50

Yeah, yeah. And it was not right. And you know, things have gotten better. She, you know, she's gone through that. I've, I've had a lot of issues too. I've had a lot of physical, I guess you would call it a physical manifestation of a mental health issue. I've had those too. I've dealt with them. It's very difficult to deal with. I, as we've said before, I have anxiety, I have depression. I have clinical OCD. I have, and that's in clinical OCD CA deals with brain pathways that can stem from trauma, usually trauma that they, it happens not to like be specific, but trauma that happens in childhood. And I dealt with a lot of things that probably contributed to that and caused that. 

0  

00:29:35

But you know, like OCD is not curable. You can't change a brain pathway. You can, you know, you can live with it and you can make things better. But, you know, I dealt with a lot of things all at one time had a lot of major issues from it. And so, yeah, it's, we've discussed it before. And mental health is health. Yes. We make it a point to be very outspoken about it. And we just want it to be de-stigmatized that like mental health it's okay. No, one's going to think of you negatively for going to get help for, 

1  

00:30:10

And we joke with each other, right. But bottom line getting, if you need help, get help. And it's, you know, 

0  

00:30:18

And there is help available. Yes. 

1  

00:30:21

And more people deal with it then than anyone realizes. 

0  

00:30:26

A lot of people never talk about it and they don't talk about it, especially we are in the south. And this is a I can't, I know there's probably a better way to say it, but it, at the time, there's not, it is a toxic masculinity environment at times where there is this thought of I'm a man. I can't like, I'm not supposed to show We and that, and that's, that's a toxic masculinity trait being in, we are in the Bible belt. And a lot of people will think that if they take medication, something is wrong with them and they're not. 

1  

00:31:05

Then, then they're, they're failing God. They're, they're not, they're not as good of a Christian as they should be. And that's not the case. That's not the case. Yes. I have faith in God. But I also know that that God provides. And he's provided me with access to these medications that can help me. 

0  

00:31:28

And just quick note, this is not radical in my mind. Some people may not really think of it this way. If you are ever a part of a quote, and I'm saying quote, for a reason religious organization that tells you, you can not be on medication. You can not do X, Y, and Z. That's a Colt. That's not a religion. Boom, boom, boom. And there is a very big difference. But if you go into something and they, and there are, there are cults out there that, that are, that are current they're, they're still, they're still going. 

0  

00:32:09

That will tell you, you cannot take medication and they will try to wean you off of medication. Not 

1  

00:32:16

Just like mood altering medication, right? 

0  

00:32:19

All medication, no medication, period. If you are in a situation where you believe you were again, following a quote, religion, and they are telling you those things, that's a Colt, I'm sorry, based off of the definition of a cult, that's, that's part of it. That's a totally different thing. Totally different things. And you can't. Yeah, we can't, I can't stress that enough. And the other thing, and I don't mean to get on a soap box, but with the topic of this episode, sorry, y'all are getting it just because you feel better, does not mean you can stop taking your medication. 

0  

00:33:03

You are feeling better because you were on medication. So do not, without the counseling of a doctor, do not go off of medications that you are taking because you feel better. I am not a doctor in any way, shape or form. I will say I've taken in my, you know, quest to find the best medication for me because sometimes guys, it does take a while it took, it took me, took me quite a while to find the one that was best for me as well. I had to, I had to go through a few and you, there are certain medications and I know of several off the top of my head that if you stop them immediately, it was bad. 

0  

00:33:50

It's very, very bad. And it can be very damaging too. I mean, it can be physically damaging to your brain and that's not, that's not something to mess around with. That's not something to do. So if you feel as though you do not need your medication for any mental health, really, for any condition, if you feel as though that is not something that you need anymore, please consult a doctor or a psychiatrist or a psychologist or something before you decide to do that on your own. I know that some people say that and a lot of us go, well, you know, I can do it. It's fine. Be really, really mindful of that and be really careful. 

0  

00:34:31

And just please do understand that if you are feeling better on your medication, it's the medication that's most likely helping you feel better. And if you are to go off of it, you could, you know, without speaking to a medical professional, first, there could be, you know, you could sometimes when you go off of depression medication, after you've taken it for a while and you think you're better and things really just aren't, you know, chemistry's just not the way that it should be. And that's just, it is what it is. You can actually fall into a deeper depression than you had before, because your brain doesn't know how to come to terms with the fact that what the chemicals that were there, that they, that it was getting are gone or a global pandemic yet, or that can happen. 

0  

00:35:23

And you can run four completely. Yeah. I mean, Leah has gone off of her medication before and she did it with the, with the, did, did everything else supposed to do with the, to instruction of a doctor? She, she went through that, 

1  

00:35:42

Did all the things, everything was great for several months and then 

0  

00:35:47

Pendant COVID pandemic kit, I mean, stops watching and 

1  

00:35:51

All the things and bad. 

0  

00:35:53

And in saying that too, there's nothing wrong with, after being off of it, you have to go back to it because there are, we we've discussed before we all have seasons in our lives and there can be different seasons. 

1  

00:36:08

Suns is important recognizing and saying, Hey, you know what? And we'll get it. 

0  

00:36:12

I need some help. We'll get more into that in, in just a bit. So I promise we're not going to stay on the soap box forever, but it's, it is something that's very close to, both of our hearts. And, you know, we've seen it before my, you know, before my dad passed away. I'm pretty sure my dad had a lot of mental health issues that were UN checked just because of, of different things. But it's, so there are people who I know who are family members, or, you know, even friends who have dealt with it that it's, it's always something that you need to do. You need to, you need to prioritize your mental health. Yes. And one of the best quotes that I ever heard, and it was actually from y'all are gonna laugh. 

0  

00:36:52

It was from Jensen Ackles, who is Dean from supernatural. They do a crime, you know, they do like conventions, like supernatural conventions. And at one of those conventions, I had watched like a Q and a panel that they did. And I don't remember what the question was that the fan asked, but one of the fans asked a question and he said to them, you know, she was talking about how she was really depressed and how the show had really helped her, you know, kinda, it was kind of her escape during the times when she was at her darkest. I get that and which it is, and it's, I love that show. So, and one of the things that he said, and it's always stuck with me is taking care of yourself, takes care of more than just yourself. 

0  

00:37:40

Absolutely. And that is very true. You, when you can't give, when your cup's empty, you can't give somebody else from an empty cup. Nope. You can't. And so you got to take care of yourself, you got to take those mental health days. You got PTO days, you got sick days, use them for a reason. You need a mental health day. It's fine. Sometimes we need a day to just lay in bed and sleep and it's totally acceptable and it's totally fine. So I'll step off that. So I'll, I'll half step off of it for a moment. So 

1  

00:38:12

That's part, that's part of our PSA. Yes. 

0  

00:38:15

So in, in continuing the discussion of, of the term completing suicide, you know, a better way for some people to think of it, because some people may think, oh, that doesn't really make sense. So say for instance, you have a family member who has heart disease and they died, right. Would you say they committed a heart attack? No, because they had an underlying condition which caused their death. Would you, you know, you would say that they died from a heart attack or they died of a heart attack. This is why terminology is died by suicide, or they completed suicide. That makes sense. The term completed stems from the use of the phrase attempted suicide or failed attempt of suicide because that is another one so completed or died by that is the, that is the term it's not committed. 

0  

00:39:09

That indicates that there was a crime, honestly, in a lot of circles. So just be, just be really cautious and aware of that. There are some people who have had close family members to them who have decided that that was the only choice for them. And to say that they committed something can also feel as though you're putting wrongdoing or blame on someone who was mentally ill 

1  

00:39:35

Know, I've never thought of it that way. If that's just the phrase, it's just the terminology that I've always heard. And so I've never even thought of it in that way. That's just been the way it was said. And I would never name to insinuate, anything like that 

0  

00:39:57

Because, you know, in the, and it can be very dangerous for some people who, you know, we've said before, in some other case, in, in another case, I think it was in our Parrington case, there is a lot of secondhand guilt from those who were still living after someone, you know, and, and no one should ever blame themselves. And, and that should never be something that you feel as though, you know, it is, it is only natural and normal to think I could have, I should have. Why didn't I, that is normal. And if you do again, backup on my soap box, if you do have someone close or near to you who has chosen that it might be good for you to speak to a therapist and reconcile those thoughts. 

0  

00:40:44

Cause you shouldn't feel guilty. We can't, we, you cannot physically control the actions of another person. And that thinking in some way that it is your fault for anything, when you truly had no fault in it can, can cause a lot of issues for you down the road. And just, just know that therapy's okay and you can have therapy for any reason. There's apps that you can do therapy. We're not a sponsor, but you can do, you know, you can go on to better help and you can, it's an app and you can talk to someone through text messages or through video chat or on the phone and you can contact them 24 7. Yeah. So if you are having any issues, like you're just having a day, you, you know, sometimes you just need to reach out to someone who's not someone that, you know, and, and discuss those things. 

0  

00:41:33

And there was actually one of the podcasts that I listened to, I believe it was morbid, had someone that said to them, you know, my brother was dealing with a very serious situation and was trying to get in with a therapist and couldn't, and he was able, I don't remember if it was better help or if it was another one, cause there's two, there's one line there's two out there. And they said that he, you know, she said, my brother was able to go on there and, and immediately get in contact with someone that could help him when he was trying to get in with a conventional therapist and was not going to be able to for two weeks. So, you know, there are, there are resources out there like that, that you can use for yourself and just be very, just be very aware if you're talking to anybody who has had someone in their life who has done that because it's a very, it, it obviously is a very touchy, touchy, subject, very touchy situation. 

0  

00:42:33

We had a recent, well recently within the past several years, the community that we were, we were nearby had, I'll say she was a minor and it, it occurred. And it was a very touchy thing for a very long time with a lot of people in the area, even people who did not know, know her. So just be aware and yeah, just, just, just don't say committed anymore. 

1  

00:43:05

Well, and it made me think of, there was a guy that my sister and I both knew and he completed suicide and we were at dinner over at my mom's with her. She has two teenagers and a five-year-old and I said something about, she, she mentioned him. And I said, you know, he I'm so sad that he passed away. And she said, are you serious? Like she didn't know. And she said, what happened? And you know, because we had ears around, I just said it was his choice. Right. And, you know, I think that was one way of, of saying, you know, because when you have little ears around 

0  

00:43:52

Yeah. I think a better way. 

1  

00:43:57

I mean, because 

0  

00:43:58

I think I would be really careful with that too, because I, I just, just not in saying you did anything wrong, I'm just saying, in retrospect, I'd be for anyone out there who does have that situation. That, that is, that is the case. I would just be really careful because that also indicates at some points that dying by suicide is a hundred percent a choice. And also does not formulate in a mental health. I don't know. I don't know what the best way to do that with, I'm just saying, but with little ears around. Right. 

1  

00:44:29

I didn't know. I mean, I don't want to bring up a new term 

0  

00:44:32

That, you know, well, and you know, I, in those situations, I think I've had to say something in front of, in front of my daughter about something similar to that to someone. And I think, I don't remember what I said. I, I think, and she knew his history as well. Right. She knew his history and there had been previous attempts. Yeah. I would attempt, I would probably say they completed it themselves. Yeah. Well, because that takes out, he chose because some people, some people really do and depending, you know, some people with schizophrenia or different things like that really don't feel like they have a choice. 

0  

00:45:17

They, you know, they they're, they feel as though this is all they can do. So we know guys, I, and I'm very well aware. There is no, there's no shirts. Yeah. There's no good way. There really, isn't just, just be careful and just know that there is a reason that isn't the new, that is the term. And that is, you know, and when I was researching into it, I kind of knew the reason of why, but I didn't think of it in some of these terms. And it does make a lot of sense. You know, I wouldn't say that my dad committed an aneurism, you know? So just, just, just different ways to think of that. You know, because also too, someone could complete that on their own and it could have been an accident. 

0  

00:46:04

You know, we've had, you know, could be an accidental taking of too many substances at one time. That could be, you know, there's no telling anyways, if you and I put this in here, if you or someone, you know, does need help. If you are not able to speak to a loved one or speak to a friend or feel as though you have that option for yourself and you were in the United States, please call the national suicide prevention lifeline. The number is 802 7 3 8 2 5 5. And if you were in a situation where you are not able to speak on the phone, or you do not feel safe speaking on the phone to someone texts the word home to 7 4, 1 7 4, 1, that is the crisis text line in the United States. 

0  

00:46:54

And they do offer 24 hour support. So if you are, you know, for some people they feel as though, you know, teenagers, a lot of times do deal with these issues. And you may feel as though speaking on the phone to someone is not an option in your home. Sure. Or, you know, you might have a, an, you know, someone could have an unsupportive partner who, you know, that could cause issues. So if you are not able to speak or do not feel like you can, or for some people it's easier to text than it is to, than it is to talk. Like I said, just text the word home to 7 41, 7 4 1, and you will get with the crisis text line. They are available 24 hours a day. If you are outside of the United States, because we do have a lot of International Listeners, you can go to the website befrienders.org, or find a helpline.com and type in your country and find the number and available resources for you. 

0  

00:47:46

I was able to find a number for the UK. If you were in the UK, from what I found, the number is 1, 1 6 1 2, 3. And for Canada, the number is 4 1 6 9 2 9 5 2 0 0. I will put that information down in the show notes so that you can, you know, if you're driving or anything. And, and, you know, if you know, somebody that those resources could be a benefit to them, you know, do it in a very loving and gentle way, but there are options out there for people to talk and for people to not talk, if you, if you decide that you want to text, so there's always somebody out there that wants, that wants to help you, that wants to listen. 

0  

00:48:26

That wants to, you know, be there for you. We will. I mean, when we, we know we get it, you know, sometimes you just need to talk to somebody who you don't know. And I told Kayla 

1  

00:48:39

When she didn't see my text, I asked her where she was on her, on her scale. We do that with each other when we know the other, one's having a bad day and she didn't. Yeah, she didn't answer me. I was like, okay, I'm about to be in the car with Mexican food and booze. And you don't, if you don't answer me on the be there and I'm, if I'm awake 

0  

00:48:56

And I'll put in here, I know that I had mentioned it in a previous episode. And in case anybody is listening to it, to it back in is wondering, we, we have the final, you know, we have more answers. Now at the time when Leah was discussing the situation that happened, I had gotten a call from the vet about player, about Claire, our cat, who you've seen on our Instagram, she's black and white. She is my daughter's cat. And she's too all my daughter wanted for her fifth birthday was a cat. And so we ended up with Claire, not just to get, not just a cat, she won it. She was obsessed. It guys. It was a, it was a whole thing. 

0  

00:49:36

She was, she was so excited. And so that was her fifth birthday present. She Claire's had a few issues over the past few months, we've had numerous vet visits to try and figure out what was going on. And initial testing was coming back that she had lymphoma. So she had, you know, lymphoma, lymph, nodes, sarcoma, and cancer, further testing went out because she is such a young cat. And there is a condition that is not, it's very rare. The cat that, that we go to actually has never seen it before in cats. Of course, leave it to me. And it, it it's basically lupus and cats. So she does have a condition, but it is, it is manageable. 

0  

00:50:16

It is treatable. She, she can live a long life, but at the time, yes, that all of this was happening. I had gotten notification from the vet that she possibly had cancer. And so was a very trying week for me. I am not an emotional person, but come at my animals and my daughter, and we have real big issues because when I said, you know, to the vet and the vet is very, she's great. If you're in Alabama and you need a vet, I can give you her name. She specifically a cat. But, but when I said to her, you know, we're gonna need to do whatever we can send off whatever test that we can. You know, this, this cat is my daughter's life. Like, you know, and I said, I, I can't tell her, you know, something negative or something bad's going to happen. 

0  

00:51:00

And the one thing that the vet said, which I do appreciate her for it. It was very blunt at the time. Didn't appreciate it. But she did say, just know that's probably an eventuality, if this does not come back. Okay. Yeah. I mean, she didn't want to get a hot drink. Right? She didn't want to give me too much hope. Thankfully it did come back and she does have, it's basically her immune system doesn't know what to do. Even if it's as small as an allergy, all of her lymph nodes on her body just swell. She's got little chipmunk cheeks, so we've got it sorted away. She's on steroids. We're, we're working through it, trying to figure out if this is an allergy or, you know, what we need to do, but just in case anybody was wondering, she is good. We are fine. 

0  

00:51:40

We're good. Now we are. We're good. So now that we've gone off that, let's go back to our case. So bottom line, Kayla has a bougie cat. I got, I got two bougie cats and a bougie dog. I got it. Fletcher has thyroid, a thyroid condition. Claire now has cat lupus and then Knox has feline aids. So I, I just attract them apparently in your friend is a little lovely little bougie too. I mean, I attracted it's, it's crazy. I think I'm supposed to ground all of them, but you know, just one person anyway, back to our case, since we've gotten way off track, but for good reason. 

0  

00:52:29

So George Bowen charging him as a participant in the murder, changed the common law at the time in a very large way because the state must provide. And this is even still true today. If you were prosecuted by the state, the law is that the state must provide beyond a reasonable doubt that what you were accused of happened beyond a reasonable doubt. And because of this, they were going to have to prove that the suicide by counsel was actually responsible. 

0  

00:53:09

Like the suicide counselor was responsible for the act itself, which is that's not easy, right? The indictment by the grand jury noted the following, referring to the murders for Jonathan Jewett. It was for him quote, being seduced by the instigation of the devil did hang and strangle himself. At this time, suicide was illegal in Massachusetts and viewed as an offense to God and was referred to as self murder. Apparently at this time, separation of church and state, not a thing now. Hmm. Hmm. It depends on where you are, but that was why he, they were, I don't know how you charge someone. 

0  

00:53:51

Who's already dead for it, but whatever I was going to say, I'm not going to get into that, which is why I think now it's not, it, it has become more commonplace for it not be legal for a very long time. It was, you know, again, separation church and state. It's still not a thing depending on where you live. But anyway, as for George Bowen, he was quote seduced by the instigation of the devil and did feloniously willfully and of his malice afterthought made an assault, which he small Trigger Warning quote did then in their procure to be tied and fastened the end thereof around the neck of the said Jonathan Jewett and the other end thereof around on the iron great of a window, and then said, George Bowen, with the rope and cord, then in there, feloniously willfully and of his malice afterthought, the body of him, the said, John Jewitt did hang strangle, suffocate. 

0  

00:54:49

And then in there died instantly in saying all of this, the grand jury stated bow and quote, did counsel hire, persuade and procure the set. You know, the Jonathan, Jewitt the felon of a murder for himself. So basically saying that like he counseled and hired and executed this murder suicide Bo, and did that on his own. I don't know how we'll get into it. This was the first time Massachusetts ever had a case of murder by counseling. And that's what this is. This is referred to, that's why this is the title of the episode. 

0  

00:55:30

Tuesday, September 19th, 1816, the trial began, the prosecution was not gentle on Bowen. And the accused also didn't really have much to help him either. He was a career thief who was described as mean-spirited hop, tempered, profane, and a racist. The jail keeper was the list of adjectives. It gets it. Yeah. There's a reason some of these are put in and we'll we'll get there. The jail keeper was the most important to testify in this case. His name was CFUs clap. That's a name. Yeah. Is clap with two PS anyways. 

0  

00:56:09

Anyway. Yeah. It's it's like anyways, he said that he quote frequently heard Bowen and Jewett conversing. And one conversation Jewitt asked Bowen, if it would be possible to hang himself and Bowen said it could be done. And it would only take about five minutes. There was a lot of debate on where the rope came from that was used and it wasn't ever really resolved. Some people said that, like that Bowen tied a stick to the end of a rope and stuck it out the window and then swung it over to Jewett. But there's no telling of where the re nobody knows where the rope came from. Basically they, they thought, oh, well he did this with the stick, but then they couldn't find a stick outside the window. 

0  

00:56:54

It's very weird anyways. And they get real caught up on where this rope came from my hand curious where this rope tanks, but it's like, you know, at the end of the day there was a rope. It doesn't really matter where it came from, from, from a jail cell who knows. I mean, did they have a visitor? Did somebody like lady come in and bring it in under her skirt? This happened like in a pretty, it all happened in a pretty short amount of time. So it's not real sure, you know, like what happened, but a juror, apparently the juror jury was allowed to directly ask questions during trial. I, okay. Juror piped up and said, quote, did you ever hear Bowen directly advised you at to hang himself, clap responded that he heard Bowen say, quote, if you let them hang you, you are a damn fool. 

0  

00:57:45

All right. The defense cross-examined the witness. And there was a lot of talk about how Jewitt never outright said he was going to kill himself. And that many times he said specifically that he wouldn't hang himself. One argument by the prosecution was that Jewitt was religious. And the witness said that quote, he had nor more principle of religion in him than a brute. Well, okay. The next witness up was Isaac Mitchell. He was the cellmate of bow. And so kind of to explain a little bit better of what was going on because Jonathan Jewitt was scheduled to be executed. 

0  

00:58:29

He was in a solitary cell alone, Bo and I believe had two other prisoners in the same cell with him that were also petty criminals. So they have the people who are going to speak of that are other prisoners are in the cell with Bowen, not Jewitt okay. But there are where the cells, they were close to. Yeah. They were close to one another, but it was made with like brick walls and stuff. So it it's, it's very, it's, it's very weird. I'm not sure if there was like a gap in one place or whatever, but so Isaac Mitchell was Bowen cellmate at the time. 

0  

00:59:10

And he was a counterfeiter. Mitchell said that Bowen was known as quote, the speaker of the house in the jail because of his quote loquacious banter. Hmm. Loquacious is, is a fun word. It says it's been used to describe me more than once. Wouldn't surprise me. Mitchell recalled a conversation between Bowen and the executioner. When the executioner threatened to throw Bowen in the dungeon. If he continued to advise Jewett to hang himself and escape public execution, and a few days later, Bowen was added again, quote, as bad as he ever was. 

0  

00:59:50

Mitchell continued to say that small Trigger Warning. Again, these are direct quotes. So, and I very rarely get those in cases this early. So I'm sorry. There's some in here the night he hung himself, I was awake most of the time. And when the clock struck three, I heard Jonathan come across his cell to the wall next to us. He asked Bowen what o'clock Bowen said three, and you have, but 13 hours to live about 15 minutes. After that, I heard a noise as if someone had removed a stone in the room above and soon after a sound, just sorry, guys. A sound like that. If someone choking as soon heard something like a person thumping his toes on the floor, remember back to how I said Bowen was a racist. 

0  

01:00:38

Okay. Next Mitchell remembered calling the jailer to the scene. When Bowen said, quote, hold your tongue. What in the hell do you care for a damned Word? I am not going to say starts with the N. He said, and he continued to say, I am as glad as if I had a hundred dollars now, clap and old Mattoon, which Mattoon was the executioner have lost their fees. And I have saved the country $200. Slick, several other prisoners were called to the stand and the case. And most of them all had stories along the same line. 

0  

01:01:24

So one of the defense, one of the defense attorneys only are referred to as Mr. Lyman, they didn't ever put his first name, just Lyman argued to the court. The difference between suicide and murder since Bowen was being charged with being a principal in a murder twice, keep in mind, we are not trying Bowen as an accessory. An accessory is assisting in a crime without actually participating in committing the crime itself. This is why the getaway driver and a bank robbery is referred to as an accessory, correct. You know, in a murder, you can be an accessory in some cases, just with prior knowledge of a murder, without reporting it to the authorities, you can be an accessory. 

0  

01:02:10

Another example would be someone, if you help someone bury a body, but you didn't murder the person, you are an accessory to the murder. So just to kind of explain the difference between an accessory and a principal, the principal is the person who is primarily responsible for a criminal offense. So the murderer like the robber, the, the dad is the principal. As I said before, this is the first murder by counseling case. And there wasn't a precedent for what to do at all. Lyman said, quote, we do not deny that the prisoner gave you it wicked advice, but if he is guilty of this foul sin, there is no law precedent or parallel that exists to punish him for it. 

0  

01:02:58

He will receive his punishment when he stands before God. The other defense attorney, Isaac Bates stated it is farcical to pretend that Bowen considered considering his character and the situation that the influence over Jewitt, all the facts were distinctly known and present to the mind of Jewett without and suggestion. His execution was undoubtedly the predominant subject of his thoughts. And of course the predominant subject of remark upon which he expressed the opinion he pleased also did I mention the other prisoner? 

0  

01:03:38

Mitchell said he had seen Jewitt after his death left that out. Didn't I, well, Bates had plenty here to say as well, quote, he tells you on the stand that he has seen you at since his death and burial, and not only Jewitt, but the escort of Jewett entering his room through an iron door and this not in the night, but in the day he not asleep but awake. And in his sober senses, would you dare take the life of a fellow being upon such questionable and ghostly testimony? Do you it's death? He concluded was quote in all things independent of Bowen, unmoved and uninfluenced by him. 

0  

01:04:21

The main issue with the charges was the charge of murder while Bowen wanted you at to not have a public execution because of basically just mischief and wanting to anger people around him and cause chaos or, and not mean he wanted to stick it to the jailer and such that's not necessary malice afterthought. Sure. So Bates gave this in an example, quote, supposed from the best affections of my heart. I should advise a friend to take a little more than his usual quantity of laudanum, of course, which is, you know, an opiate sure. To put an inch, the tortures of a hydrophobia or gain green, you might call it anything else, but you could not call it malice. 

0  

01:05:05

Although one might be charged with assisting in suicide, they could not be charged with murder. That requires deliberate malice, which constitutes a Cardinal part of the offense of murder. Before you can, him, you must be satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty that he was procuring cause of Jewett's death. And that too, with malicious intent, which is required to constitute murder, this is where the state then had the burden of proof to prove that Bowen committed the crime beyond a reasonable doubt in his closing. He stated essentially that you could, you don't have. 

0  

01:05:45

And if anybody knows a lot about the Scott Peterson case Scott and Lacey Peterson, which I have feelings on this reminded me of the closing, oh, I think it was the opening arguments of, of his trial. He stated that you didn't have to like Bowen and he isn't justifying his contact, but he isn't guilty of the crime he's being accused of. And the last thing he said is secret things belong to God. Now the attorney general came to close the prosecution side prostitute. Prosecution's not an easy word apparently. 

0  

01:06:25

And he said, quote, the act of Bowen was innocent. If that the act of Bowen was innocent, no one would pretend, but is his offense embraced by the technical definition of what a principle and murder self-destruction is doubtless a crime of awful turpitude. It is considered in the eye of the law, equal heinous with the murder of one by another. And this offense, the actual murder escapes punishment they're referring to Jewish who is now dead. They're saying that he escaped punishment for the very commission of the crime, which the law would otherwise punish with his utmost rigor, puts the offender beyond the reach of its infliction way. 

0  

01:07:12

Wouldn't the punishment have been death. Just going to throw that in there, continue, keep in mind. And in this, he is distinguished from other murderers, but as punishment is as severe as the nature of the case, we'll admit his body is buried in infamy and in England, his property is forfeited to the king. Now, if murder keep in mind, that was in England. Now, if murder of oneself is felony, the accessory is equally as guilty as if he had aided and abetted in the murder. He continued by saying that the witnesses placed on the stand heard Boeing counsel Jewett, and that he advised you at to use a rope. 

0  

01:07:56

Then we get to the judge, the judge then had to address the jury in the case before they went to deliberate, the fate of Bowen, chief justice, Isaac Parker. This is the third Isaac in this case, by the way, her name Mitch means laughter by the way. Yeah, one of the inmates was Isaac. One of the defense attorneys was Isaac. And now the judge is Isaac. So it's like all the women named Mary. So just chief justice, Isaac Parker tried clarifying everything. And he said, quote, considering the similarity between the nature of suicide and the murder of another. 

0  

01:08:36

If you find the facts as alleged in the indictment, you may safely pronounce the prisoner guilty. The important fact to be inquired into is whether the prisoner was instrumental in the death of Jewett by advice or otherwise. The question is, did this advice procure the death of Jewett? If you were satisfied that you had previously to any acquaintance or conversation with the prisoner had determined within himself that his own hand should terminate his existence and that he esteemed to conversation with the prisoners. So far as it affected him as just idle talk, let your verdict say so, but if you find the prisoner encouraged and kept alive motives previously existing in Joel's mind and suggest others to augment their influence, you will decide accordingly. 

0  

01:09:31

Judge Parker made it very clear that they could not concern themselves with the fact that Jewitt would have died regardless if it were by his hand or by the executioner. So they were not to put that into consideration. That's not what they were there for. The judge asked them to ask themselves whether Bowen's life should end for an act done a few hours before Jewitt was scheduled to be publicly executed. Quote, the community has an interest in the public execution of criminals. 

0  

01:10:09

And to take such one out of reach of the law is no trivial offense. And you were not to consider the atrocity of the offense and the least degree diminished by the consideration that justice was thirsting for its sacrifice and that, but a small portion of Jewett's earthly existence could in any event remained to him. The jury was sent to deliberate at 8:00 PM and after two hours, they came to a verdict of not guilty. Hm. This case was groundbreaking for the United States and England. 

0  

01:10:50

When someone who counseled another successfully to commit and they use this term to commit suicide. Cause this was the law written at the time was thought also to be a villain who should suffer imprisonment and have his property taken by the state. So that's when he was saying, you know, you are guilty and then your belongings are taken and given to the king, that's what he was saying, right? The Boeing case demonstrated, however that in American case law, it was impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the recipient of the advice actually committed the deed solely because of counseling. He may have already been thinking unless indicted as an accessory to a capital crime. 

0  

01:11:36

From this point on the state had the impossible burden of proving that words in the form of advice or counseling kill. At the top of this episode, I mentioned that the case of George bone was tied with a widely known case recently. So we're going to quickly, and I do mean quickly go into this case because it is a lot, don't have time to go into all the specifics of it. I know a lot of it. I can throw a bits and pieces in here and there, but a lot of you know, this case already, I'm ready. No, you're not July 13th. I promise you. You're not. If you don't know anything about the, you are not ready. Cause he's Conrad. 

0  

01:12:17

Roy's 18 on July 13th, 2014, Conrad Roy, the third 18 was found dead of carbon monoxide poisoning in his truck. His quote girlfriend, Michelle Carter 17 was charged as a juvenile with involuntary manslaughter based off of text messages to Conrad, encouraging him to complete suicide. Oh, ma like I said, this is a very long and convoluted case. And when we get to the year 2014, we might cover it. I'll briefly summarize it here. Since 2014 is quite to distance away from here. Couple of years, almost 200 episodes. 

0  

01:12:58

So the six days leading up to the death of Conrad, Michelle and Conrad shared many text messages with one another, in which he expressed his suicidal thoughts based on court transcripts. She quote, counseled him to overcome his fear of death. Now I'm going to read some text messages between them, you know, in this area. So this is one of them and a text to Conrad. Michelle said, quote, don't be scared. You already made this decision. And if you don't do it tonight, you're going to be thinking about it all the time and stuff, all the rest of your life and be miserable. You're finally going to be happy in heaven. 

0  

01:13:37

No more pain, no more have had thoughts and worries. You'll be free. It's okay to be scared. It's normal. I mean, you're about to die. I would be concerned if you weren't scared, but I know how bad you want this and how bad you want to be happy. You have to face your fears and do what you want. Oh, ma oh ma you appreciate the accent that I put on that I did. I couldn't use my own accent on it. So yes. And that's, that is just the tip of the iceberg. What a, an insightful 17 year old girl, as in the case with George bow and defense attorney Joseph, I think it's Cataldo said Michelle Carter can't be charged with a crime because she didn't cause Roy's death. 

0  

01:14:25

Cataldo stated quote, he caused his own death by carbon monoxide. He researched how to kill himself. He had a long-term plan to kill himself. He continued by saying that Michelle only used words and that it was protected on the first amendment, which is the freedom of speech. After all the two had not seen each other in over a year and lived 50 miles apart. The two met on vacation with their families in Florida a few years previously and had kept in contact. So she didn't carry anything about him. It is unclear whether they were boyfriend and girlfriend or not. And again, that's why I said, I can't go too deep into this because there is a lot, she had posted stuff on, on I think Facebook or Twitter or something. 

0  

01:15:11

There there's a lot that goes along with it. It said that maybe she was wanting to play the role of the grieving girlfriend. There is a lot into it. I tend to veer towards, they were friends. And I think Conrad wanted to be more than friends. I don't think Michelle wanted that. I don't know. It's very, that is why I loosely use the term girlfriend. Cause I don't believe that that was the case. I think he saw her as someone that he could speak to and felt like he could talk to her and it, it, it, it didn't didn't go well. 

0  

01:15:53

So this is more, this is just another section of, of Text from them. Conrad said like, why am I so hesitant lately? Like two weeks ago I was willing to try everything. And now I'm worse, really bad. And I'm LOL not following through. It's eating me inside Michelle. You're so hesitant, big haze. You keep you keeping overthinking it and keep pushing it off. You just need to do it Conrad. The more you push it off, the more it'll eat at you. You're ready and prepared. All you have to do is turn the generator on and you'll be free and happy. No more pushing it off. 

0  

01:16:33

No more awaiting. Conrad said you're right. And then Michelle said, if you want it as bad as you say, you do, it's time to do it today. I'm infuriated. I'm infuriated. I told you I won't read any more text messages because seriously guys, they, they, they put pages of text messages into this trial and I don't have time to go into it. The, and I didn't really put it in here, but I know what the crux of the entire case landed on an N again, sorry guys. But what it landed on the fact she was, I believe either on the phone with Conrad or texting him as this was happening. 

0  

01:17:15

And he was in the truck. And I believe from my recollection, at one point, Conrad got out of the truck. She was not there. She was not physically there. She was only over the phone. I believe at one point, Conrad physically got out of the truck while you know, the generator and the carbon monoxide and everything he got out of the truck. And I think what they landed on specifically was Michelle specifically told him to get back in the truck and closed the door. And I believe that was the crux of why they were saying it was not protected either way. 

0  

01:17:55

June 16th, 2017, Michelle Carter was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter against Conrad Roy the third and was sentenced status. Doesn't sound involuntary to me, just, just wait. She was sentenced as a juvenile to two and a half years in jail. The sentence was decided via bench trial in which the judge is the one to decide as opposed to a jury trial. In the end, Michelle only served 15 months for her sentence and was released early due to good behaviors. She originally faced up to 20 years in prison. These again are just the bare bones of the case. There's so, so much to go into. 

0  

01:18:37

Like I said, I, I have, I have a lot of feelings on this case. I have a 17 year old nephew. That's why I said this was going to be infuriating for you. Yeah, it's it's it's bad. That's my cat sound that ain't either way Conrad's law is making its way through the Massachusetts legislation. Now due to COVID, it was kind of pushed back. They're resubmitting it again. Conrad's law narrowly defines coerced suicide by specifying that the perpetrator must have knowledge of the other person's suicidal ideation, the bill skirts, free speech and cyber bullying issues. 

0  

01:19:20

It also carves out medically assisted suicide specifically. Cause that's not, you know, it's not the same thing. It's it's it's medical Lynn, Roy, who is Conrad's mother said in a statement, quote Conrad's law has nothing to do with seeking justice for my son. This law has everything to do with preventing this from happening again to others who are struggling with mental illness and suicidal ideation. If this law is successful in saving one life, then all of this work will be clearly worth less. Sir, are you ready for the lighter note? And I'm ready because this, you might cry. I've already warned Leah. She might cry. So when I was looking up the case on Conrad, Roy, the third, I did find an article from June 21st from June 21st of this year, 2021 regarding his father and a missing hard hat. 

0  

01:20:19

Are you ready? I'm right back in 2014, Conrad Roy junior, who is I'll call him father Conrad was working on a job site with his son, Conrad Roy, the third during the day, father, father Conrad lost his hard hat. When it fell into the water, it was less than a year later that his son completed suicide. On father's day of this year, father Conrad saw a Facebook post about a hard hat that washed up on a Portugal coast. It had a new Bedford sticker on it. 

0  

01:20:59

And when he saw the post, he immediately knew that it was his, it was found 2000 miles away. And father Conrad said at that moment, he started to cry and he said, quote, I am happy today because it felt like he brought that to me. That is so sweet. So that was from this year and yeah, it was, I saw that and I was like, oh crap. That is socially. So yeah. So like I said, the case that we did today to tie back to this case before that is that is, that is all for this week. 

0  

01:21:41

As far as the cases go, Michelle Carter from my understanding is still, she is out. I don't know if she has changed her name at all. I'm not sure. I didn't really look up anything on her. I didn't want to come more infuriated, but you know, I did see one quote from Lynn Conrad's mother who was very obviously and reasonably angry when Michelle was let out early on good behavior. And she said, you know, she understood that the court had to do, you know, under their S basically under their scope of their job. She understood what they had to do, but she did not see Michelle as a good girl. 

0  

01:22:29

Yes. Yeah. But she was let out on good behavior, Dina George on steroids. It's that reference? You need to look at the Regina George. It's a very, like I said, there's a lot more that goes on with it. It said that maybe she was trying to play the part of the grieving girlfriend when they might not have actually been a couple, either way. The text messages are just that, that when I say that's only the tip of the iceberg, disgusting, it's it is truly just the edge. Talk about being manipulating, manipulating, and it, and it said that she had mental health issues as well, which is not an excuse because if you have mental health issues yourself, I mean, you would, you should be shifted to such things. 

0  

01:23:18

You should be more understanding. And I understand she's not Lee. And I talked about frontal lobe, you know, matured the other day. And I understand that, but there, I, I believe even in someone who is that age, you have a sense of social normatives. You have a sense of, this is not normal. This is not, this is not how nor, and I don't mean normal as like an actual staple or an actual way of thinking, but social norms, I mean, yeah. Like social norms, like this is not a social norm to encourage this type of, you know, behavior behavior upon someone else. 

0  

01:24:07

I mean, especially in their issue, what they came into. I said, as I said before, I believe it was the fact that he got out of the truck and she told him to get back in. Yeah, I think that was one and I'm pretty sure that's what happened. I want to say she was on the phone. I don't, I don't remember, but, and I want to say anyways, I don't want to get bits and pieces wrong on it, so I'm not gonna continue on that part, but yeah, I believe that was part of it. And then he had said, you know, several times, like he couldn't go through with it and he, you know, all this other thing and she was pushing and encouraging and manipulating him. 

0  

01:24:49

Yes. And you know, so this, this case to deal with a lot of free speech and what free speech is, and one of their, this case in particular, what was so difficult with it is it, it would have, it was a very dangerous case to try because this case could have changed the meaning of the first amendment and freedom of speech. So they were very cautious and there's actually another case going on right now. I want to say it's in South Korea where a similar situation happened. 

0  

01:25:32

So, but I, you know, I don't know their laws or how things go there, but anyway, that that's, that's the case for this week. No, that was a real heavy one guys. And I'm sorry. And I know some of you probably got really angry, much like Leah warn. Y'all, I'm sorry. I'm still kind of all I know. Like we said before, you know, if, if you or someone, you know, does need assistance, we're putting, you know, I'll put all of that information in the bottom, in our show notes in anybody does need that information. But if you are in the United States and you do need, you know, some, some assistance yourself and speaking to someone, or if you know someone who does please 

1  

01:26:15

Someone who's encouraging you to know it, please talk to somebody which 

0  

01:26:19

Is someone who is counseled to do these things. You know, again, the national suicide prevention lifeline is 802 7 3 8 2 5 5. And if you are in a situation where you were not able to, or don't feel safe speaking with someone on the phone, you know, due to, you know, whatever situation you were in Text HOME to 7 4, 1 7 4, 1 for 24 hour support from the crisis Textline outside of the United States, go to <inaudible> dot org or find a helpline.com. And you can find, you know, the, the best available resource in your country and for the UK, the number is 1, 1 6 1 2, 3. 

0  

01:27:02

And for Canada, 4 1 6 9 2 9 5 2 0 0. Those resources are available to everyone 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So please, you know, those resources are there for a reason. And you are here 

1  

01:27:19

For reason, you are the only you on the planet, and there's a reason you are here. Yes. 

0  

01:27:27

The only, yes. And, and just, just keep that in mind, always, you know, times get rough things get really difficult. And we understand that. And we've said before, in a previous case that we will never, I will never say I understand how you feel because I never will. I will never be in your shoes. Exactly. I can sympathize with what you can be feeling, but I will never be directly in your shoes and no one ever will. And, and I'll sit beside you. 

1  

01:27:53

Yes. And I'll try to be quiet. You know, I'm not good at it, but I will 

0  

01:27:56

Try to, you know, and there's, you know, we, no one will else will ever understand a hundred percent what you were going through, but you have to allow other people in to help you, even though they might not have any answers for you and just know guys, it is okay to tell someone I need to talk. And I just need you to listen. It is okay to set boundaries in a conversation and set your expectations in that conversation. It is a hundred percent okay to do that. And you should feel safe to do that as well. 

0  

01:28:37

You know, sometimes there are things that go on and I'll tell my boyfriend. I'm like, I don't, he's, he's a fixer much like I am. And you know, and I'll tell him, I just need you to listen. And I just need you to be on my side. That's all I need from you. Like, I don't, I don't need you to fix it. I don't need you to ask me how I did something wrong or, you know, and he never would do that, but it's, it's always important understand that you can set the expectation of what you are wanting out of a conversation. And if that is the safest way for you to feel, you can communicate. You can say, I'll let you know when I'm done talking and I'll let you know when you can provide input, if you are wanting input, but it is always okay to say, I just need somebody to listen and don't need somebody to fix or tell me to do something or, you know, tell me I'm doing something wrong. 

0  

01:29:34

And that is a hundred percent okay. Even with parents, even with spouses, even with friends, even with it is always okay to set your expectations and draw boundaries for yourself, with others, you should never be worried to dry boundary that you feel is going to be more beneficial to you. And you also, because I struggle with this, and I know Leah does at times too, you also cannot be worried about hurting the other person's feelings when you are the one that needs to talk. Yeah. That is a lot of people feel as though I'm going to hurt this person's feelings, their feelings at this moment, when you are having a crisis and you are having something that you really need to get off your chest, I am sorry, your feelings of how have your perceptions of this conversation. 

0  

01:30:29

I love you. They do not matter right now because all I need, I need the floor for a minute and don't be afraid to do that. Don't be afraid to tell someone that. And I know that sometimes it may take some courage. I'm a people pleaser, and you know, but, but it is healthy to do that. And you will feel better for setting that expectation. 

1  

01:30:51

Well, and with, with my husband, when I'm having a moment or a day or whatever, I'll just come in and he sees my face and he just knows, and I'd just walk in and he puts his arms around me and he just, he knows, I just need him to, just to hold me for just a minute. I don't need him to talk. I might cry. I usually cry. I might not Prado, but he knows. All I need is to just be held and just, just quiet. Just, just, I might say tighter and just, I just, I just need him to squeeze me. And then when I'm ready, I'll talk. But sometimes just having somebody just to sit there with you is all you need. 

1  

01:31:34

That's all you need. And 

0  

01:31:36

All always in and along with that too, in saying that, you know, if you are someone who, and I'm saying this, because I are both the same way. If you are someone who like us, we, we do have anxiety. We do have things that overwhelm us. We have days where, I mean, we both have had days where we don't want to get out of bed. We don't want to do things. We, we go, we go through seasons of different things. You know, we, we go through times where we have, you know, we have those feelings where we don't want to do anything. We don't want to get out of the house. Leah had a depression kitchen for quite a while until recently and dining room. Yes. And her wonderful sister-in-law came and organized it for her. 

0  

01:32:16

And Leah felt like she could breathe again. And y'all, I could cookies in my, which is, which is it's on amazing and amazing. And there are things like that. And I don't mean to, again, like I hate to feel like I'm standing on a soap box or anything, but these are important. These are important things that a lot of people will not tell you, unless you are seeing a counselor. And sometimes, you know, you don't, sometimes you don't feel safe to do that or, or, or what have you. But if you are, if you live with a parent, if you lived with a spouse, a loved one, a significant other, a friend, if you are someone who has times where things, aren't things, aren't going well, things aren't great. 

0  

01:33:00

It's been a day. You and there are times when you're having a day, there are certain things you need out of someone maybe go ahead and just say, Hey, do it on a day when you're not in that state. But just say, Hey, this happens to me. This is what I need from you. It's always good. Like I said before, to set an expectation of what you need from that person, because it, trust me guys, it prevents a lot of arguments. It prevents a lot of hurt feelings. It prevents a lot of things. And if it's something that I'm a person that I I'm a thinker and I will shut down and I don't want to talk, and I don't want to be touched. 

0  

01:33:48

I don't want you to look at me. I don't want you to breathe on me. I need, like, there are times where I need a hug. Like in all the times that I need that, I'll just walk up to my boyfriend. And I'll like, put my forehead, like on his arm or on his chest. And he'll like, give me a hug, but he knows, like, I she's like a cat. I am. I'm very, I am a cat. I know that I am there's though. That is me in a nutshell, but always feel safe to set a boundary and set an expectation and go ahead. And just like, just like, if your house was on fire, you would know where to go. Like if that, if our house is on fire, Ellie knows where to go. I tell, I told her, do not meet me at the mailbox, meet me in across the street, in the neighbor's yard. 

0  

01:34:32

And she said, why? And I said, cause the car is in the driveway. And if the fire were to spread to the car, you could get, you know, more and you know, and it's always good to have those conversations where you can say, right, I need this from you on days like this, I need, I need comfort. I need to be left alone. I need a few minutes to myself. I need, you know, X, Y, and Z. And that's okay. Yeah, it's, it's, it's perfectly fine. But also on the same hand and Lee and I have brought this up before, surround yourself with people who check on you, surround yourself with people who do care when things are going wrong. 

0  

01:35:16

And when things are going bad, because those are your friends. And those are the people that do care when things are going on with you and tell when they can tell when something is off or something. 

1  

01:35:34

Funny me. Here's another one, please. 

0  

01:35:37

You know, and just guys really just think about what you need in yourself from other people. And I know that that can sound selfish, but it's not. Because at times we have to be selfish for ourselves. Basically 

1  

01:35:54

Get to take a minute and just try to get, come to a realization about yourself. Not, not necessarily what I want from them. What I want, just relax, take, get a realization about yourself and just kind of say, okay, what, what is it that would help me 

0  

01:36:14

In the words of one of our bosses at the end of this conversation, what, and she laughs because this is one of our bosses. This is his thing, but seriously it, at the end of this conversation at the end of this, what do I want to achieve at the end of this? Do I want to be mad? Do I want to be content? Do I want to just be a few more notches down from when I came into it? What, what is it that at the end of the day, I want out of this situation and that that's it. And Hey guys, also, if you're probably going to step on some toes, if you're in a relationship, friendship, romantic relationship, family, ship, whatever you want to call it, and you do not have support from those people. 

0  

01:37:16

It is okay to step away from those people do not put yourself in a box to make someone else more comfortable. If you that's hard. That is very hard. But I, I promise in the long run, it, it is what's best for you, especially being in a romantic relationship with someone. If you feel as though you cannot comfortably express your feelings and your opinions with that person, I'm sorry. I don't care how long you've been together. 

0  

01:37:57

That person is not for you because if they were, they would want to hear your opinions and they would want to hear what, what, what your issues are. They would want to say, you know, I, I understand that I'm willing to work on that. And never, except from someone that's just how I am, because the answer should really be I'll work on how I can be better at that. Not that's just how I am. And you know, that's just, I understand guys that that's really difficult to hear. And especially with friendships, people have been friends for a really long time, but guys, there's some selfish friends out there and there are, see, we talked about this the other day, there are seasons for friendship and sometimes a friendship no longer serves change, seasons change, and it's okay to sign, to cut them out of your life complete, but it's okay to accept. 

0  

01:39:01

Sometimes there's a natural end to things. And like we were, you know, we had had a discussion about, about something the other day. And, and like, I, you know, it was like, I totally yet do not pull someone into your life who does not want to be there. You are trying to keep a cat in a box. And as we know, while cats may love boxes, they want to get out of them occasionally. And if you try to keep that friend, that relationship, that family member, if you try to keep putting them back in the box, when they're trying to pull away that box has Guinea get it's, it's going to get destroyed. 

0  

01:39:47

That cat scratch. Yeah. That cat's going to claw its way out of that box. And when that happens, it's not going to be pretty. So just if people want to pull away, let them, and it may not feel great, but that just means that there's something else that's better. This is an advice column. I really feel like it's turned that into that. I could, I could, honestly, I could probably run an advice column. I'm I'm that person that people talk to have to help you out with that and temperate a little bit. Yeah. It can be pretty brutal sometimes. It's, it's always out of love. It's never out of hate. 

0  

01:40:28

It's just that sometimes I, sometimes I can say the things other people don't really want us Alan flower at, yeah. Lee is much more flowery with some things than I am, but either way guys do what's best for you. Do you know your worth know your worth? Do what's best for your mental health know that you do not belong. Do not minimize yourself. You are a Starber do not minimize yourself to make someone else happy. And if you do have feelings as though you are having issues that you do need to discuss with someone, please do, please do, go and get that help. 

0  

01:41:10

Well, like I said before, whether that be from an app or like better help, I can't remember the, the name of the other one right now. It'll come to me as soon as we stop recording. But so you can put it in. <inaudible> just go, go to that. You can also change on that app. I know for sure you can change your therapist. If, if for some reason you're talking to one and you're just not really driving with them, which happens guys, if you've gone also last quick thing, if you've gone to a therapist before, and you did not jive with your therapist, you did not get a long with them. It is fine to go see another therapist. That therapist is not going to get their feelings hurt. They would rather, you go see someone else than not go at all. 

0  

01:41:54

So if you have gone to a therapist and you did not feel as though they did you any service or you felt as though that was just not a good bit, because you're not going to get along with everybody on mate. Go see another one. And I do know that the better health app, I know that you're able to Talkspace is the other one. So those two, I do know that it's pretty easy for you to find another therapist. If you know, that's not one that you want and if you're a millennial like me and you just really don't like confrontation and you just would rather talk to somebody over the phone sometimes than in person go do that. Guys, just take care of your mental health. 

0  

01:42:34

Take care of yourself. Do what's best for yourself and murder is bad and join our Patrion. I mean, if you want to, it's not, it's not required and write us a five-star review, get a sticker, get a sticker. So yeah, I'm off my soap box and I've put it away. So until next time we have a website where you can find any and all ONUC information. You're looking for shock here that it is One Nation Under Crime dot com. We are One Nation Under Crime on Facebook and Instagram and at, oh, in UC pod on Twitter. 

0  

01:43:15

If you love our podcast, please go rate and review. And please remember to follow us. I'm sure a lot of you do, but please be sure to follow us so you can get all of our episodes first. Like I said, we got a Patrion, go become a patron. You'll love it. You get our undying love, which I mean, you kind of do in general, but you get a little bit more, you know, we really appreciate you guys sticking around this week. I know this was a really heavy topic, but as we've said before, you know, if we can, if we can help one person feel as though they are worth getting the help or they, if we can help one person have the courage to step forward and do that for themselves, then, then really we've done all we need to do for this podcast that, you know, that's really while history and true crime is, is, you know, the basis of this podcast. 

0  

01:44:07

We always just want to make sure that everyone is aware that they are loved. And if anybody goes and gets help, just because we said to then we've done our job and not real sure what our case is going to be next week. Guys could be going in a supernatural direction because there is no case for 18, 17. Yeah. It's real hard to find. So I'm going to do some more digging. I'm going to see what I can find, but there's a chance chance we might go in a different direction. Maybe not. There'll still be a lot of history. So don't worry about that. Always history. So we love you guys and yes, likely you said you are all pink Starbursts in a world of yellow Starburst. 

0  

01:44:58

You're pink. Yes. I mean, and if you like yellow, make it the other way around whatever unit you get, you get it, you can get it. So we will see you here. Same time, different crime, unknown crime next week. And remember there isn't always Liberty and justice for all. We love you guys again. If we haven't said it 600 times in this episode already, there are 601 and we'll see you guys then get back.