1811: The Murder of George

You are listening to one nation under crime, a chronological true crime podcast. Each week we go through our nation's history and discuss one case for me each year, starting in 1800. I'm Kayla and I'm Leah. We are on 13 now. Lucky 13. It's exciting. I like the one and I like one in three. That's a good number. We're a teenager. You know, we are, it's funny. Yeah. Pretty steady. So far. We've as far as everything that's been going on with like downloads and stuff, kind of some pretty interesting lists, like places like, hi Germany. 

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00:00:47

Hi. I don't speak German. So I'm sorry. I, I, I don't have you seen those tech talks where the people will talk like about one word in, like, they'll talk about one specific word, like hospital and how all these other like countries say the word hospital and it's like speak thou and all these other things. And, and then it always goes to Germany and Germany is like crank and house and it's and everything else is like, it all sounds like hospital. Like, you wouldn't know what it is. 

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00:01:26

Germany's is like so hard that Germany was still like, you do love it. It's but there's like people, their series on Tik TOK of people that are like using these words and then going to the German word for it. And it's, it's really funny. So we also have, let's see, did you say Uruguay? Yeah, we do. We, we did Montevideo and then some more in the UK. We've got like a pretty good fan base in the UK. So hi guys. Hi. And our friends are our neighbors to the north. They're always hanging in there. 

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00:02:08

The Canadians can I think that's right. It's not, I apologize. I think it is, but I think so. So this week we are in 1811 and let's get in to it. We'll kind of go over what the topic is in a bit. So sources for this week, one of them is an article by Dale M Brumfield. I got a lot of information from this article and it was called murder among the earthquakes among the earthquakes. 

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00:02:53

Yes, it's very interesting. And that was on medium.com, but it was a really good article. So I really use that one. It was very, very long. It was one of those, like a mental floss article. That's like never ends. It was kind of one of those, but it was very, very good. The New York times had an article that was actually from 1976 before I was born. Just throw that out there for you. And then this was kind of like a series of essays, I guess that is called the history of crime and criminal justice series with David R. Johnson and Jeffrey S Adler as the series editors. 

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00:03:37

Okay. And it kind of went through a few decades of like crime and that's, you know, things that were going on and it was really helpful. And it had a few pages on this case. So real helpful for that. The events in 1811, January eight, the German coast slave revolt led by Charles Deslondes think it's Deslonde days. <em></em> not sure I tried, but that broke out in St. Charles and St. James Louisiana on January 22nd, the Casa revolt began in San Antonio, which was an opposition to the Mexico war of independence. 

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00:04:25

That was also almost a case that I covered, but not a lot of information on it. So it was kinda hard to can't cover it if you can't figure out about it. I mean, there was information, but it just, it wasn't, it was one of those that there's like, oh, there's information here, but it's not, there's not enough information here. Yeah. It be like a five minute podcasts. Then March 22nd, the commissioner's plan of 1811 for Manhattan is presented. This was the original design for the streets of Manhattan above Houston street and below 150 fifth. 

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00:05:05

This created the rectangular street grid that Manhattan is known for today. This has been described as the single most important document in New York city's development. Interesting. So, and that was done all the way back in 1811, which is pretty cool that it's still considered that today. July 9th, British Explorer, David Thompson posted a notice in modern day, Washington state claiming the area for the UK. Interesting. This is ours now. Yes, but that didn't last. That last, this is ours. October 11th, inventor John Stephens boat. 

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00:05:48

The Juliana begins operation as the first steam powered ferry. November 7th, American troops led William Henry Harrison defeated the native American chief T come see in the battle of tip canoe, December 16th, the new Madrid earthquake and Mississippi valley near new Madrid reversed the course of the river. Hmm. December 26, the Richmond theater fire in Virginia killed 72 people, including the governor of Virginia George William Smith and the president of the first national bank of Virginia Abraham be Venable. 

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00:06:35

So also looked into that to see how that would, if there wasn't a lot of information on that, either unfortunate. So let's get to our people who were born this year, January 17th, George S. Houston. We are really the only ones that are going to care about this one, but I had to include it. George, as Houston, governor of Alabama from 1874 to 1878 is born he's Capricorn, February 3rd, Horace Greenlee the founder and editor of the New York Tribune was born. He's an Aquarius, June 14th, right close to mine, Harriet Beecher, Stowe. 

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00:07:22

She was some people might recognize her name, but she was an abolitionist. And she was the writer of uncle Tom's cabin. She was a Gemini. So those are really the only ones that we had for, for this year that were a lot of the others were like, oh, it was this politician from this time, I was like, eh, myth. The only reason I included the Alabama one is because we're in Alabama, you know, so on to the case, December 15th of 18, 11, 17 year old, George was savagely murdered by Isham and Lilburn Lewis, February 9th, 1812, a portion of George's body was found by a farmer named Hurley. 

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00:08:09

And George's gruesome murder was finally discovered. We'll get to it. Cause I know that look on your face and knew that's what it was going to be like. It's it's bad. So there's push. Yeah, there's never a good, true crime case or murder, but this one is especially weirdly enough. Leah just said the word heinous and the murder is very graphic. This will be a medium level trigger warning episode today. 

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00:08:51

And this episode involves significant violence towards slaves. So if that's not something that you would like to hear about, I will give you plenty of warning. As far as that portion of the story that we will get to because it is, it is pretty bad. I mean, I it's. Yeah. W w we'll get into it. We've discussed before that, in this genre of podcasts that we've kind of like found ourselves in that we never want to make it seem like we're exploiting someone's murder for downloads or better ratings. 

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00:09:31

This is a case that I had never heard of. And I had to search for a pretty good bit to even find it. We are covering this murder specifically because George's case is not well-known and George, I mean much like Dr. Durham, George deserves more than to be lost to history. There's also a reason that I have not given George a last name. I was 

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00:09:59

About to ask why, well, we don't know his 

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00:10:01

Name. We do know the name. And y'all might notice that when I titled this episode, the title of the episode is the murder of George. I did that for a specific reason, and I have a really, I've had a really hard time with this one because I'm very conflicted as to whether I should put his given last name, which was Louis. This is the same last name as the two monsters who brutally murdered George without any remorse and with reckless abandonment to human life. 

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00:10:34

Were they his? Yes. 

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00:10:37

The, 

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00:10:37

Yes. Okay. Because I mean, they were viewed as his owners, even though 

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00:10:42

Exactly. Even though people are not owned, but at the 

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00:10:46

Time that is how 

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00:10:47

Correct. Correct. And I, I have a really hard time because, okay. He, if you look up anything about George to kind of, if anybody really does want to look into it more, trust me, this episode will be enough for you. But if you really do want to look into it more, the ways that people have titled him and some places as either George Lewis, slave George, which I don't like, and then Lilburn Lewis's George and I have a hard time with all of those. 

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00:11:31

And I don't, I just have a really hard time giving him, like, putting the name because when and guys, when I get to the description of the murder and when I get to that point, you will understand immensely why I have a very hard time with that, but I will say, I just don't want it to seem callous that I'm not giving him a last time. There's a reason. 

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00:11:58

Right. But I will say when, when slaves were freed, they did a lot of them. I mean, a lot of times they would choose a, a last name for themselves, you know, but a lot of times they would take on the last name of the family that they, right. Yeah. 

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00:12:22

That was how Dr. Durham got his last name. Cause we talked about in that episode. And so I, you know, I do understand that and I do, I understand that's kind of how the way things were, but, 

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00:12:35

But again, a person is a person, not a piece of property. And I told you that 

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00:12:40

And his, he did not, this is a different, 

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00:12:46

This is an area. 

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00:12:47

This is very different. And it's very, I, I just, it's kind of like when I'm, in some cases and people, people understand like in, like in our case of Fairbank's, when he's buried in the same cemetery as Elizabeth fails, like it's kinda like one of those things of like, I have a real hard time when, when like the husband who murdered the wife is buried next to her. I have a problem with that. It rankles. And then I also have a problem with giving someone the last name of the people who murdered him when that's not truly his last name. 

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00:13:34

And unfortunately he never got to be freed and choose his own last name. Right. As I said, he was 17. So yeah. 

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00:13:44

What a way to start this 

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00:13:45

One out? I, sorry guys. I know, but it, it is a story that needs to be told. It is a very interesting episode because this is also a year that a lot of weird stuff happened in the U S and we'll kind of go into it a little bit more. So this is going to kind of be a good mixture of an episode of kind of history, a good bit of history that was going on at the time, we're going to go into a family tree. That's going to take a little bit of time to go through and you know, we'll also discuss the murder, but there are a lot of events that I'm going to discuss that occurred around the time of George's murder, because several of these events might be why it took so long for anyone to take notice of this month. 

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00:14:34

How 

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00:14:34

Long did it take? 

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00:14:37

He was killed in December. And it was February that anyone realized, okay, 

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00:14:45

What had happened. So not a horribly long time, but still, 

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00:14:49

It would have been noticed earlier if some of these events did not happen. Right? So, so it's gonna seem like I'm jumping around in some parts, but there I have a rhyme and a reason to it. So you always have a plan. I try to our case this week takes place and Smith, Lind, Kentucky, which was founded in 1780 Smith land is it might be, I think it's Smith Smith, one Smith land newness. It's located in Iceland Smith island. I just had to throw a little wrench in your plan, who knows either way. It's located in Livingston county, on the Western side of the state and it border like it's border of the county touches Illinois. 

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00:15:38

Okay. It's also where the Ohio and the Cumberland rivers merged together. Livingston county is a dry county with the exception of grand rivers. How long do you think it took them? When do you think they finally allowed alcohol sales in grand rivers? The whole county is dry except for this one city. So how, what year do you think they would have made it to where you could sell alcohol there or purchase or whatever, 2005, 2016. And you had to be like relatively saw that. And I was like, what, what in the Alabama? 

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00:16:23

Yes, seriously. It wasn't until recently the past couple of years, you couldn't buy alcohol on Sundays, anywhere you could it at a restaurant, you could get it at a restaurant, but you could not purchase alcohol on Sundays, but now it's after 12. Well now, because let me tell you something, you go to the lake or you go to the pool or you do something nice on your nice Sunday and you go, you know what, I'm going to stop by the gas station. And I'm gonna just, I'm gonna grab some nice refreshing beverages for my day. And it is before noon. 

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00:17:03

And you just stroll all the way up there. You will get the worst looks and I'm like, excuse me. So sorry. Still can't buy it for noon, but at least we can still, we can at least buy it on. So they used to rope off the aisles. And I know some people are gonna think this is crazy, but they used to like rope off the aisle who were like the wine and the beer was so you couldn't be in church before then I'm just saying it's supposed to be, I mean, that's true, but just say Jesus turned water to wine. So I'm just saying he did at a wedding in 1961 Smith land was the filming location for how the west was won, which starred Jimmy Stewart, Debbie Reynolds, and Walter Brennan, Dino. 

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00:17:51

And other than this terrible case, that's all that Smith Linda's really known, which is the real 

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00:18:00

Sad one 

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00:18:01

Extreme. So there's that. So the year of 1811 was, can we just 

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00:18:07

Stop for a second? What? I love me some Jimmy Stewart, 

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00:18:12

Debbie Reynolds do 

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00:18:15

Debbie Reynolds too. But I mean, I'll let me some Jimmy Stewart, that's just some apple pie. Good old American right there. I'm pretty sure it was 

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00:18:26

Debbie Reynolds was yeah. How Hawaiian town. 

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00:18:32

Yeah, I think she was the grandmother. Yeah. 

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00:18:35

My daughter, Ellie loves Halloween town. We watch it all year long. So we have Disney plus and Ellie's like, let's watch Halloween town. We will not watch Halloween town returned to Halloween town, which would be movie four in the Halloween town. I, it, it, it is a trilogy because I don't count the fourth movie because they changed Marnie and thought that no one was going to notice. 

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00:18:57

I don't know all this, but I believe, 

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00:19:00

And if anybody else paid attention or liked those, because I love Halloween time. It's a nostalgic movie for me. But yeah, Debbie Reynolds was the grandmother in it and Ellie and I loved her so much in those movies. And Ellie loves her. She's like, I wish I had a grandmother that was like her. And she's like, she's a witch. And I was like, she has a witch. And she goes, but she's a really nice one. So Fetty. 

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00:19:26

Well, my mom is from Scotland and it has been so much fun. She's an alien, she's illegal alien. Like she has an alien card, you know, illegal alien. And his mother does not mess around with my nephews. Like I do. Like, we all mess with them, you know, just joke with them. And it has been so much fun telling my nephews at different times, you know, when they're different ages or, you know, younger that Gigi is an alien because they're like, no, she's not really, she's an alien. And we'll say, we'll ask her and she'll say, yeah, she's like, yeah, I'm an alien. Yeah. I've got a card. And they're like, because you know, she doesn't really mess with them like that. 

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00:20:12

And then she shows them a card that says she's an alien and it freaks them out. Oh my gosh, it's the best thing ever. That is so fun 

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00:20:19

Anyway. Yeah. I mean, if you got you, you got to do stuff like that. Fun. 

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00:20:25

It's crazy. So it kind of had a segue, but I just, I love Jimmy Stewart. I love him. So continue. 

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00:20:32

The year of 18, 11 was considered the year of miracles 

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00:20:37

Or 

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00:20:39

Honest Mira. Mira. Bailey's try it again. Nope. However, I don't know 

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00:20:54

What languages, 

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00:20:56

I think it's supposed to be Latin, but the way that the first word is spelled not, not here for it. Oh goodness. 

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00:21:09

It was awesome. 

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00:21:13

But while it's called the year of miracles, this might not be the type of miracle that you would be imagining. This is kind of miracle in the sense of not, oh, that's a miracle that, that happened. It's like the bad miracles that you're like, oh, that's a mirror. Cool. It's it's yeah. It's cause when I saw a year of miracles, I was like, oh, that's so cool. And then I went to go read it. And I was like, this is not a miracle. What is this? It's interesting. It's it's stuff was going on this year. So the us was having a record drought that was debilitating to many farmers. 

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00:21:57

No good. There was a major squirrel migration 

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00:22:08

Squirrel stop migraine. 

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00:22:09

There was a squirrel migration. So, and I, and it's a major. Okay. So it's a major squirrel migration. If I were to say a major migration of squirrels, how many squirrels do you think a major migration would be? That's kind 

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00:22:27

Of like, how much would 

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00:22:32

You, if there were a major movement of squirrels and it was taken notice of how many squirrels do you think would be moving at once 10,000 million? 

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00:22:50

Where did he come from? Where did he change? So squirrel migration 

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00:22:55

Then like a plague of locusts or these plagues pretty much so sorry, guys. This is trigger warning for S for squirrels 

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00:23:07

Squirrel. Yes. 

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00:23:12

Hundreds. This is not funny. I'm sorry. Hundreds of thousands of squirrels we're drowning in the Ohio river because they were trying to get across the river. And all I can think of is like one squirrel going across and drowning and the other squirrel 

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00:23:35

Using them as a flight. Scrap from the ICU. It's 

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00:23:45

So it's so bad. 

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00:23:47

So bad. Look, I'm sorry. My brother has a shirt that says squirrel's nature's little speed bumps. And I look, I love animals. I love animals, but we have so many squirrels where I live. We have 70 squirrels and they dig up the yard and, and, and, and I love squirrels and I love animals. And I love to watch the squirrels play around, but I'm just saying lots of squirrels. 

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00:24:11

So imagine Millie, gosh, my grading south. 

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00:24:18

Thanks. But they all came from, it gets better. Now, where did they come from again, 

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00:24:25

North? That's all we know they migrated from the north. 

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00:24:31

I mean, I've had squirrel dumplings before that. Yes. I'm that Southern. 

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00:24:36

If the squirrels weren't enough, 

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00:24:40

Don't tell me there were snakes. No 

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00:24:42

America's passenger pigeon population skyrocketed. And they quite literally took to the sky. So how many pigeons does it take to cause a panic amongst the us millions, billions, millions, millions of squirrels migrating south. And then you got billions of pigeons. 

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00:25:15

These are not miracles. These are plates. These are plagues of biblical proportions. 

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00:25:24

Oh gosh. It said that there were so many birds that the sky and the woods would darken from the flocks. 

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00:25:33

And 

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00:25:34

Not only are the birds terrifying 

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00:25:37

And the squirrels are menacing, 

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00:25:39

But when the birds would come through, they were, they were congregating in such large flop. The pips were every way. No, they would take to the trees, you know, to like rest. There were so many pigeons. They were stripping the tree Bayer from planting Funny. But it's funny. And they said that you could look into the woods in the woods during the day would just look black because there were so many. 

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00:26:09

Oh no, I bet the poop was bad to them. I'm thinking about that. I mean a mall, the wagons covered in bird poop. I mean it's 

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00:26:23

Oh, bad. So in September of 1811, there was a solar eclipse that oh, totally. 

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00:26:32

Clips of the, Hey I'm in rare form today for 

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00:26:40

The solar eclipse covered the Midwest. 

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00:26:45

Oh, and it wasn't a total eclipse. Yes. Oh. So they thought it was the end of the world. There. They were biblical plagues. 

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00:26:56

And was 

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00:26:57

There somebody that was given out, Kool-Aid saying, no, this is the, 

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00:27:01

And so, and there is a massive twin tailed comment 

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00:27:09

Fly must stars 

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00:27:11

Flying across the U S sky for 17 months. This was the tecum sea comment. And it could clearly be seen in October of 1811. And it disappeared in April of 1812. This comment has been blamed for setting off a series of events when it was assumed that it crashed to earth Assumed, assumed. So fun fact about this comment to come C's comment how they know these things. I don't know, but it will not return until the year 37 75. 

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00:27:50

Well, praise the Lord for that. I don't want to be here when there's massive migration of squirrels and pigeons white didn't didn't the carrier carrier pigeons or 

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00:27:59

Passenger pigeon there. 

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00:28:01

Yeah. That's what I was going to say. Didn't like, yeah, their extended 

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00:28:04

Got killed. So native Americans and locals in the area assumed that the comment crashed right into the Ohio river. And they also thought that it was a prophecy of the coming war with Indians at tip a canoe. And that the comment caused a series of earthquakes in the area. 

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00:28:23

Just, just that's another good 

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00:28:25

Year. Just think about this in 1811, 

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00:28:28

That's a lot going on. And one year you got 

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00:28:33

Millions of squirrels, billions, birds, 

1  

00:28:37

You got stink. 

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00:28:38

You got this crazy comment. That's flying across the sky that you've been able to see for 12 months now. And it's still not going to end. There's a total eclipse in the Midwest. 

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00:28:54

Wow. 

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00:28:58

This is it. This is CNN. 

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00:29:01

I mean, where's the guy with the sandwich board and the bell. 

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00:29:05

I mean, it is it's 

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00:29:09

That's a year. This is not a year of miracles. I don't know why it's called a year of miracles. It should be called something else. It should be called the year of plagues. It gets better. There's more, 

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00:29:25

I briefly touch on the new Madrid earthquake that actually reversed the course of the river and the Mississippi valley. We talked about that at the top, Kentucky, the Ohio valley and most of central United States was shaken up quite literally from three seismic earthquakes that took place from December of 18, 11 to February of 1812. In addition, there were over 2000 tremors, which were centralized to Northern Arkansas and new Madrid, Missouri. 

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00:30:09

They could be felt from Mississippi to Boston, woven up to Montreal, shout out to our Canadians. Hello from the desk in the oval office, president James Madison wrote, there was one earthquake here this morning at five or six minutes after four o'clock. It was rather stronger than any proceeding one and lasted several minutes with sinister though. Very slight repetitions through the succeeding hour. When I say there were tremors like continuous for three months, the ground was shaking for three months. 

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00:30:50

Wow. And then it was a major earthquake tremors, another major earthquake tremors. 

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00:30:58

I do not want a ticket for that ride. Thank you. 

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00:31:01

So the year of miracles, 

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00:31:05

Those are not miracles. Friends. Those are not miracles. 

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00:31:08

And all I can think about with the squirrels is there a drowning in the Ohio river? So just imagine if you live in the Southern part where the Ohio river is, and you're just seeing thousands of dead 

1  

00:31:22

Squirrels, squirrels 

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00:31:26

Coming, okay. You don't know what's going on because none of the squirrels have gotten to you yet. They're just the dead river. You just see squirrels like a raft, a raft of dead skulls. And you're like a 

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00:31:47

Longy squirrels man, 

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00:31:49

As the Midwest eclipse is overtaking you squirrel just with like the pigeons sitting on their back, just along for the ride. I get these people. They probably were like, we're done. Yeah, this is 

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00:32:08

Yep. So I have a squirrel story. You want to hear a squirrel story? So when we bought our house, it had an above ground pool and we hired some teenage boys to clean it out. One of which has listened at least to our first episode. Hi Andrew. They gave us a really great review. 

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00:32:38

And the, yeah, I know which 

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00:32:40

One you're talking about. Policemen, police 

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00:32:43

Office. 

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00:32:44

We love their family. Yes. We love, we loved the whole family is so the one they used to call. No. Okay. Now he didn't know diff okay. Different. But, but funnily enough, his, that guy's first name is Andrew, but he goes by his initials. 

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00:33:04

That's what I thought. When you said that, I was like, I remember the initials, but I couldn't remember. Okay. Continue. 

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00:33:11

But anyway, so these were breathers Robert and Andrew, and we hired them to clean out the pool, you know, to get it ready for the summer. And it had not been covered and there was a tree beside it and they found no. Oh, they found or girls. And they were like, yeah. One of them had been in there for a while. 

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00:33:36

It was pretty bloated. 

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00:33:41

We paid them well, though. I hope it was well, Andrew who wasn't well, tell him we'll make it right. But I think it was well bless. Sorry if that was too gross, but 

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00:33:51

I mean, yeah. Alright. 

1  

00:33:54

Good tubs. 

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00:33:55

Well, we've at least had fun in the beginning of the episode. Yes. For squirrels. We're going to take a short field trip back to episode 11, huh? Yeah. Did anybody get to see our little Easter egg at the end of episode 11? I hope you all enjoyed it. You're welcome. So we discussed Merryweather Lewis and his very strange death. Well, the is in this case. Oh, one in the same, just a different part. But one that we also discussed in that episode, remember when we discussed the sister of Thomas Jefferson was married to Mary, whether Louis his brother That couple Charles Lewis and Lucy, Jefferson Lewis are at the center of this case. 

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00:34:54

That makes me sad. 

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00:34:57

Also didn't put this together in the episode that we did on Merryweather, but Charles and Mary, whether so, okay. Also didn't put this together in the episode we did on Merryweather. But remember that Charles and Mary weather's stepfather was related to Thomas Jefferson was related to Thomas Jefferson, Charles, his wife's name is Lucy. Jefferson. Yes. So then Charles went on to Mary Lucy, Jefferson. 

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00:35:39

This made Charles and Lucy, technically first cousins, their children from oldest to youngest were Randolph Isham, which he's one of our people in this case, Jane Jefferson Lilburn. Who's the other one? That's the name? Lilburn like L I L B U R in Lilburn. It's one word. It is. It's a very weird, but that was Charles his middle name. I'm sorry, his dad's middle name. 

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00:36:20

So then so yeah, there was Lilburn then Charles, then Mary Randolph, then Lucy, then Martha Ann, Ann, who went by Nancy making a grand total of nine children too many. Yes. Moving on. When the family moved nine, nine children nine when the family moved to Kentucky because they did live in Virginia. Cause you remember the Lewis's went back to Virginia. The whole thing, right? 

0  

00:37:02

When they moved to Kentucky, six of the nine children moved with them. Like the older three probably were already established. Two of the daughters stayed behind in Virginia. I think it was Jane Jefferson and Mary Randolph. I think they were the two that stayed behind. Also Mary Randolph married Thomas, the son of Randolph, Jefferson. They all kinds of intermingled Randolph, which she was also named partially after her name was Mary Randolph. 

0  

00:37:46

Like Randolph was her middle name. So she's married. Randolph Randolph. No, she would be Truvia Jefferson. Cause she married. Yeah. So Randolph. Okay. Sorry. I got was the younger brother of Thomas Jefferson and Lucy Jefferson, which would make Mary's husband, her first cousin as well. You can not make this up. This, this Jerry Springer. This is not, but as I'm researching this, I'm like what, what, what? Wow. So Mary Randolph then became Mary Randolph, Jefferson. 

0  

00:38:28

So it's like confusing. So Mary Randolph, Jefferson married, Randolph, Jefferson, Mary Thomas Randolph, Jefferson, 

1  

00:38:41

Their middle and last names just too much, just too 

0  

00:38:46

Much. So we can't 

1  

00:38:51

All right. I mean, this was very common, but it's so, 

0  

00:38:55

It's so weird. And they were not from Alabama. 

1  

00:38:59

I mean, I'm just saying my daddy went out of country to bring in new blood and I had to go out of county because I'm related to so many people where I'm from. I'm just saying 

0  

00:39:10

It's not related to her husband. No, 

1  

00:39:12

No, no. I'm not. I mean, my sister and I both went out of county just to make sure. 

0  

00:39:17

So all right. We've, we've had a little bit of fun now that we've set all this up, we're going to get to George and the events that contributed to his murder, George was born into slavery in 1794 and Albemarle, Virginia. And that's about as much as we know about his early life. When he was older, George was described as ill grown and ill thrived with a scar over one eye that was caused by quote, an independent nature. Don't know what that means. 

1  

00:39:57

So it was a main already thinking he was like then and sickly 

0  

00:40:04

Possibly. I mean, that's kind of where that, that that's the direction it was going in. I think kind of, I, I looked up the terms, ill grown and ill thrived. Couldn't find him. 

1  

00:40:21

Yeah. I mean, to me it sounds like maybe he was yeah. Or maybe even like malnourished Navy is what I'm thinking, you know, how, and if there was a scar, how, how was the scar describe? 

0  

00:40:40

It was just over one eye and it was caused by an independent nature. So maybe he had like an accident or something like, and it, and it caused a scar 

1  

00:40:50

Or even what was ever an odd. But you know, I'm thinking like the kids that have had had like a cleft lip, you know, maybe there was a deformity or something that could cause something like that. You know what I'm saying? Like there could have been some sort of something like that and you know, he could have been malnourished, she could have been underweight. And so, or he could have had, you know, there are like, if you watch the middle, I watched the middle, the youngest kid on there. The actor that I can't, I don't know the actor's name. 

1  

00:41:30

Sorry, I don't know all the actors names. He has a, a genetic mutation, whatever it is called. I'm sorry. I don't know the right terms. And, and he didn't form, you know, grow like most people do. There's a genetic mutation there. So maybe he had that. And that could be part of it, like, you know, like a study, not, not necessarily dwarfism, but just something that kept him from forming. Like most people do. So it could be something like that. 

0  

00:42:04

Right? Yeah. It's it was an interesting one and I wasn't quite sure exactly what they meant by it. 

1  

00:42:15

And they didn't have the medical terms that we have now. 

0  

00:42:19

Yeah. I'm not sure if that's quite what they, I don't know. It was just a very weird term that they use for it. So in 1808, Charles and Lucy, like I said, moved six of their nine children to Smith island to Kentucky to run away from their financial problems and start over. And he 

1  

00:42:42

Had been with them his whole life. 

0  

00:42:44

Okay. Yes. So George and the other slaves from their Albemarle home of course went with them with them. Lucy died in 1811, leaving Charles to take care of the younger children alone. Charles was described as consistently irresponsible. And thankfully he had help taking care of the two youngest children, Martha, and then the other one Anne, who went by Nancy, at least 

1  

00:43:17

He was consistent 

0  

00:43:18

In something. 

1  

00:43:21

So I don't get Nancy from Martha how'd you get 

0  

00:43:24

Fan? Oh, she was, she was an name. Can C not sure. I'm the oldest of the children Randolph and his wife. Randall's wife was also his cousin, Mary so weird. They stepped in to help Charles, but Randolph and Mary also died in 1811. They had eight children of their own. Nice. The only quote responsible child left old enough to help was Lilburn, who was just starting to recoup from the death of his first wife and taking care of their five 

1  

00:44:10

Children. Heavens 

0  

00:44:12

Altogether. At this point, there are eight children who are orphaned and another seven who were presumably young enough to still be living at home fifth teen children, total. 

1  

00:44:26

That's a lot of kids, as my daddy would say, that's a passable young ans 

0  

00:44:31

Let this be an example of my two child theory, fifth teen children. So Lilburn, begrudgingly remarried a woman named Latisha who at the time of their marriage was eight months pregnant with Lilburn child. Oh, chivalry. Isn't dead. I'm being very sarcastic. There was a malaria, there was a malaria outbreak, which led to medical bills that couldn't be paid. 

0  

00:45:12

There were quite literally children everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. And Lilburn was in a perpetual state of mourning over his deceased wife. Elizabeth. Oh, don't feel bad for him. So that is sad that he don't feel bad for him. Little Vernon Isham, where the two brothers that trouble just seemed to follow them everywhere. They went. And I've taught a few kids like that in the great words of Marshall Mathers, AK M and M. This is what happens when a tornado meets a volcano. 

0  

00:45:54

These two were the epitome of that expression, Isham, the tornado that rips through everything and causes chaos wherever he goes. And then Lilburn the volcano that sits there waiting to erupt. And when he does the results are catastrophic. It reminds me of in Disney's Hercules, which guys, if you've not seen, that's one of the best Disney movies of all time, weekend, they were kept like the Titans that were in Disney's her Healey's, they were kept, locked up. And then once they were out, there was pyros the lava Titan that just spewed hot lava and flames. 

0  

00:46:39

And then Stratose was the air Titan who was literally a walking tornado and Brittany one who was wondering, cause I was the other two Titans were lithos, the two headed rock monster and hydros, the giant ice skills and Kronos. Then there wasn't one. There was a Kronos. Okay. Nope. So these two kept trying to ride on the coattails of their famous uncle Thomas and tried name dropping around St. Louis and Natchez, hoping that they could literally cash in on the relationship, whether in the form of a bank loan or a job, the name dropping didn't go well. 

0  

00:47:21

And they weren't even able to find jobs, let alone be given any money by anyone. Did anybody tell them to stop? Name-dropping just wait. Isham sent a letter on April 27th, 1809 to his uncle. This was back before any of the financial hardships or any of the deaths in the family. Okay. Let's just go to the letter and see what you think. Quote, dear sir, the great desire which I feel to be placed in some employ whereby I may secure to myself, the happiness drivable from the idea of enjoying the fruits of well-spent industry and the difficulty I find in attaining this object, unassisted by any influential friend has induced me to beg the favor of your endeavors. 

0  

00:48:09

In my behalf, I'm in hopes that you will be less disposed to think hard of this request. When I assure you, it is produced from necessity brought on, not from my own imprudence, but those of an unfortunate father whose promises of wealth and neglect to bring me up in any useful pursuit has brought on me the want of the former and occasions me to deplore in his inattention to the ladder. So to break that down for you, I, and I hate to do 

1  

00:48:42

This, but my dad is a good for nothing. 

0  

00:48:44

Annie Jo hill, I can't find a job. No one will give me a job because you're my uncle. I need a job because I have no money. The reason I have no money is because my father is a POS who promised me money and he didn't teach me any useful skills. This is why I need money. Oh, also my dad is still a POS uncle old uncle Thomas wrote back on May 1st, which was super quick, by the way, because the first letter went out on April 27th and on May 1st he had already received it and right back, he said, dear, sir, it is with real concern that I learned the disagreeable situation in which you are for want of employment. 

0  

00:49:35

And the more so as I do not see any way in which I can propose to you, any certain relief as to offices under the government, they are few. They are always full and 20 applicants for one vacancy. When it happens, they are miserable. Also given a bare subsistence with the least chance of doing anything for the future, the army is full and in consequence of the late pacification will probably be reduced to the subtitles of that. I hate that your father has turned into a POS. I cannot get you a job. 

0  

00:50:15

There aren't any jobs in government that you were qualified for sex to be you and the positions that I have opened have 20 actual qualified people applying for them. They also need money. The army can't take you because we aren't doing much there right now. So again, sorry about your POS dad, but your Sol sucks to be you. Yep. In that same letter, he did tell him that if he would come back to Virginia, then he could teach him how to survey land. But it doesn't seem that Isham ever responded to, to doing that. You mean you actually made a learn to try to learn how to do something and work something. Yeah. Yeah. Right. 

0  

00:50:55

So that's not what I want to do. So I told you that it kind of seems like I jumped around in the timeline, but it, it all has purpose. It all lines up. So we're going to go back to 1811 and to what exactly happened to George by this time, all of the debt had piled up Lil burns depression over his mother and his first wife dying just kept finding new lows. And the family's coping mechanism was just heavy drinking. That's never good. And like the low life that Lilburn was, he chose to take out those frustrations on the family slaves, especially George, for some reason in the middle of December George disappeared and then showed back up a few days later on December 15th, George was carrying a picture of spring water, any trip the pitcher shattered. 

0  

00:51:51

This was an heirloom pitcher. And it belongs to Lucy, the mother of the Lewis family who had just passed away. Not long before, like I said before, the men in this family were known to drink and like some people, the more they drank the worst, they were, you know, that saying that like a drunk mind speak, sober thoughts. Well, a drunk mind also acts on those sober thoughts for those who aren't familiar with homes at this time, I'm gonna, I need to go ahead and say this ahead for those who aren't familiar with homes at this time, the kitchen was separate from the structure of the main house. 

0  

00:52:36

One reason was in the event that the kitchen caught fire. It wouldn't take the rest of the house with it. Lilburn and Isham dragged the crying and apologetic George to the kitchen house. This is your trigger warning. This is going to be a medium trigger warning. It is very graphic and takes a bit of explanation because this is an account of the actual murder given by the people who were there. You're probably gonna want to skip forward three minutes, five minutes, if you don't want to hear it. 

0  

00:53:19

It's it's, it's rough. So we're gonna go ahead and we're going to start into that. So if you want to skip forward, do it. Now, the brothers shook ropes and tied Georgetown to the chopping block in the kitchen. OMA Lilburn forced the rest of the slaves inside and locked the door and then forced them to build a fire. I don't want to send to this. It's it's rough. I, I forewarned you. Lilburn was shouting at the other slaves that he was going to teach them a lesson in not disobeying him. 

0  

00:54:02

How did George disobey? Exactly. I think it could be partially because he did disappear for a short time. So I would think maybe that kind of, I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I don't know how he, he disobeyed. I'm not sure he broke a pitcher. I don't know. He raised an ax over his head and with one swing, almost a capitated, George, there are a few stories here. One says that Lilburn started to dismember George starting at his feet and making his way up. Oh dear. 

0  

00:54:42

Another more sinister story is that Lilburn ordered another one of the slave men to dismember George and throw the parts into the fire to try and hide the death. The third is that George was alive during the ordeal and rather than almost decapitation, the other slave was forced at gunpoint to start the dismemberment at his feet. Either way. All of the stories are horrible, no matter which one you choose, it's unsure exactly where Isham comes in. 

0  

00:55:22

But while the murder was happening, the brothers were telling the other slaves that the same would happen to them. If they weren't quiet about the murder and neither one stopped the other, correct. Once they were finished and had put all of the evidence in the fire, the door was unlocked and the slaves were forced back to their quarters, panic stricken about what they had seen and afraid the same thing would happen to them. And that's the end of the description. I don't think that was three minutes. It might not have been, but either way I, I wanted to give whoever wanted to skip ahead. I wanted to give them more than enough time because that, that that's a pretty, a pretty gruesome one. 

0  

00:56:08

It was really hard to read cause there that actually didn't go into full detail. I took, took some detail out because it was, it was really rough. It was around midnight when the brothers were finally done and I suppose satisfied with themselves cause they didn't seem bothered by any of it. Two hours later at 2:00 AM on December 16th, the first of the three earthquakes that we discussed before took place. The epicenter was in the Northeast portion of Arkansas. Everyone was awakened by the violent shaking and Lilburn watched as the chimney in the kitchen house, collapsed this, put out the still roaring fire and exposed portions of the half burnt body. 

0  

00:56:58

The aftershock, the next morning was ranked at a 7.4 on the rector scale and produced rolling trimmers every 10 minutes for the next several hours. 

1  

00:57:08

I wonder when the Richter scale was devised, 

0  

00:57:12

It was after this, but based off of everything that researchers could find, that was how they ranked the destruction that was around was how they ranked these earthquakes. 

1  

00:57:25

You know, it's a process that it was right on the Richter scale. Okay. 

0  

00:57:28

This is, the rankings were done afterwards and it was based on accounts and based on a bunch of other things acquiring months. Right. So Sorry, but the rolling tremors didn't stop Lilburn from forcing the slaves to rebuild the chimney immediately. So 

1  

00:57:47

He could finish the 

0  

00:57:48

Date rolling tremors or not. 

1  

00:57:52

Cause he's got to cover 

0  

00:57:53

Up. And when I say rolling tremors, it was described like, wait, like the earth was moving in like waves. Yeah. Wow. So I squirrels waves and birds. I don't know. Yeah. So while rebuilding the chimney, the slaves were told to hide pieces of the body in the masonry, 

1  

00:58:25

But in the masonry, but 

0  

00:58:28

They missed one very important part. Oh dear. Before we get to that portion, we're going to breathe for a second because we're going 

1  

00:58:42

To have a happy break. Are you going to tell me a joke, 

0  

00:58:44

Whatever that is. So this was not just a normal earthquake. I know that our listeners in California, cause we do have several of them. Hello? They're probably rolling their eyes. How bad could it be? Right in new Madrid, the earthquake created real foot lake and drowned several dozen people in the nearby Indian village, the Mississippi river flowed backwards for several hours. It flowed backwards. 

1  

00:59:14

Did she not? I said native American village. Hmm. Should she not have said native American village department? You said, 

0  

00:59:22

I think where they were at this point, it was not part of the United States officially yet. So they would still be considered Indians, I guess. Technically I don't know. I want to keep you straight, right? I'm not sure could be native American could be either way people were drowned. Okay. Just bad. Correct? Yeah. So the Mississippi river flowed backwards for several hours and it's freaky. It's very creepy and formed. Two waterfalls trees were swallowed into the ground and giant tar balls were shooting out of the cracks in the ground. 

0  

01:00:06

That's wild. There was a thick black smog that covered a lot of the areas in quartz. Crystals were pushed out of the ground. And with the shifting of the plates, there was an odd light coming from the cracks, the light reflected off of the courts and calls something called ready for this as size mall luminescence. So you have an entire river that started flowing backwards 

1  

01:00:43

And they didn't have small because they didn't have all the, you know, exhaust and themes and such like we're used to smog. Now you have 

0  

01:00:52

Tar being shot out of the ground. Trees that have fallen in the cracks. No, no, no 

1  

01:00:59

Trees have not been, have not followed. 

0  

01:01:02

Yeah. The earth reclaimed them. Did you like that sentence as much appreciated the earth just re they reclaimed the trees. They said these are ours. And then you have the, the ground has something sticking out of it. And it's glowing. 

1  

01:01:21

I mean, 

0  

01:01:22

So 

1  

01:01:24

Given all of this tell me is that they were willing, man, that's walking down. 

0  

01:01:29

So we got our squirrels, we got our birds, we got our comment journey to the center of the earth. We've got our first quake. We've got Ooh. Yeah. So given all of it, it's not hard to see how people would get distracted. And also think that the world is quite literally ending and 

1  

01:01:52

Who's gonna, you're a modus. 

0  

01:01:54

You're a miracle. 

1  

01:01:55

Yeah. And who's going to notice one person missing when there's all this up. People, people going on, maybe he was swallowed up 

0  

01:02:02

Like a tree. So the earth kept shaking for five more weeks. And on January 23rd of 18, 12, another earthquake clocked in at 7.8 on the Richter scale and kept the ground tremors going, Ooh, then February 7th of 18, 12, the third and final earthquake and the one called the most devastating ever recorded in lower north America, east of the Mississippi. Wow. The magnitude is estimated to have been an 8.1 and it is still listed at number nine for the worst earthquakes in us history. 

0  

01:02:53

Wow. This last one caused that chimney to come tumbling down again. And that one part that they left out shook loose. So two nights after the final earthquake, a farmer named Hurley was riding his horse and Smith land. When that tell me he was burly and they called him burly, Harley, I don't know. That'd be awesome. Early. I'm sorry. A stray dog trotted up to Hurley carrying something in his mouth. It was the charred remains of a human head. 

0  

01:03:35

No, so definitely identifiable Hurley thought it might've been a casualty from the earthquakes. Sure. Any almost shrugged it off, but then that little voice that's in everyone's head said it might be something else. And he went to find sheriff Robert Kirk, the men returns to where the head was found and examined it. Sheriff Kirk noticed a very large scar over one eye and remembered a 17 year old slave in the area named George who had the same scar. 

0  

01:04:17

He also recalled that George had kind of gone missing back in December and that the Lewises never reported George missing, or even tried to offer a reward for his capture and return, which is what commonly would have happened at that time. Well, if two and two, make four, then a charred head and unreported missing man. And to reject brothers equal arrests. Yeah. Thankfully at this time murdering a slave was illegal in Western Kentucky. And with all of the evidence, the sheriff found this was a pretty open and shut case. 

0  

01:04:58

Thankfully, the brothers tried to say it was an accident, but with all of the circumstances, everyone knew this was a lie. Yeah. They appeared in court and bail was set for the brothers to remain in custody and they didn't have the money to pay it. I hope the Delaney, one of the trial to begin immediately, but the judge postponed it for three months. Somehow the brothers were able to get five land owners, of course, men to sign bail securities, essentially bail bonds. 

0  

01:05:37

And the brothers returned home. Believe that's 

1  

01:05:41

Called the good old boy network. <em></em> 

0  

01:05:44

Leticia. Remember Latisha, the wife that Lilburn really didn't want to marry and did it begrudgingly. And then always was sad about his first wife, which I get, but still 

1  

01:05:52

He married her when she was about to give birth to their 

0  

01:05:55

Child. Begrudgingly. Remember that show Lori not dead. She was wise enough to get out of Dodge and took her two month old baby to her father's farm house in Salem, Kentucky, which was around 16 miles away. She was terrified that she was in danger of being harmed too. And that she could be pulled into the crime and accused of aiding. The brothers somehow was like, 

1  

01:06:26

Hey, Hey dad, it's worse than I thought 

0  

01:06:28

I didn't do this by. 

1  

01:06:31

I am not getting caught up in that crazy town. Wow. 

0  

01:06:35

Lilburn just couldn't handle the abandonment. Even though he did not care for a Leticia of deer Trigger warning, he tried to convince his brother into a suicide pact. We will talk more about this topic coming up in case that is triggering for anyone. We're going to go into it a little bit more in detail. The pact was supposed to take place on April 10th, 1812. They took rifles with them to the graveyard were a little burns. First wife was buried. They were supposed to face each other with one holding the gun against the other's chest. 

0  

01:07:18

And they were supposed to fire at the same time. 

1  

01:07:22

So it wasn't a suicide pact. It was a 

0  

01:07:24

Murder pack pretty much so before they began Isham ass, low burn, what would happen if one of the guns misfired? Because then one of them would be dead. The other one wouldn't this part is a little cringe-worthy. So if you're squeamish, skip forward a few seconds. Can I plug my ears? 

1  

01:07:52

Nope. 

0  

01:07:54

Lilburn went to show his brother how to make sure the gun didn't misfire. Oh 

1  

01:07:59

Dear. I don't want to hear 

0  

01:08:01

He put the gun to his chest. Oh no. And used a stick to pull the trigger. Oh, the gun fired. Yeah. Yeah. The fired accidentally and went straight into his chest. It blew his chest open and he died instantly. 

1  

01:08:23

That's no good. 

0  

01:08:26

My opinion. He didn't deserve to die so quickly, but you know, just me Isham ran. He was like, I can't buy. 

1  

01:08:38

And whose idea was it to have this pat 

0  

01:08:41

Little burns? The one who's now dead Wilburn had his will in his pocket. And a note to his quote, beloved and cruel Leticia. Yeah. So the 

1  

01:09:02

Coroner, what a minute stop. Cause 

0  

01:09:07

You guys Lee's trying to regain her composure. She can't, 

1  

01:09:11

He gone dis hate. I don't want to, you know, you can have no, I I'm trying to think of a way to rehash what he done did with, 

0  

01:09:26

Without saying what he did, what he did. Right. So the events that happened, he 

1  

01:09:30

Is going to do all the things that he did 

0  

01:09:32

Saw it. Asian saw it. It's not sure how involved is sham was, but he didn't stop it. 

1  

01:09:38

He did. Yeah. He's going to participate in all this stuff. And he's going to call this wife that said, Hey, this family be crazy. I don't want to be tied up and caught up in all this mess by going back to daddy. Bye y'all. She 

0  

01:09:59

She's cruel. Yeah. Yeah. And her, her husband who's now deceased is the one who was the main participant in the murder of George. And he calls Latisha cruel. 

1  

01:10:15

I'm just saying, okay, continue. That's what I'm saying. Just be ready 

0  

01:10:21

To be more outraged. So the coroner, John Duro arrived at the cemetery to review the scene and sign the death certificate. Isham actually reported the death to the coroner. Weird. You couldn't have done that before or maybe said, Hey stop. We don't, we shouldn't do this to someone anyways. Okay. Direct. 

1  

01:10:47

I should ask the question. Is issue a younger brother. Is he younger or older? 

0  

01:10:53

Older? I think I'm pretty sure he's there. They're right by each other. There's one child in between them, but I could, I'm pretty sure Isham. I want to say, well, actually I'm not sure. I'm not a hundred percent sure. 

1  

01:11:10

I'm curious because a lot of times, and it would the 

0  

01:11:13

Older brother, who's the leader and the, 

1  

01:11:15

Well, sometimes it's, it's, it's just personality wise, you know, there's one, that's a leader. And so, you know, sometimes there is that, that leader and you follow what that leader says, just because they're the leader. I'm not putting all the blame because I mean, you have a tongue in your head, use it. My mother has said that more than once she's got a tongue in your head. Right. You know, you know how it works, but it's sometimes it's more difficult to stand up for. What's right. When that person is the person that has always been the leader that you've always followed for your entire life. And it's, it's a mental thing. And we talked about, you know, your, when it's your mom, you know, it's always harder when it's your mom and this, you know, a sibling thing again, it's, it's harder to continue. 

1  

01:12:06

I mean, I'm not saying that he shouldn't have said something, but mentally I can understand being in that. 

0  

01:12:12

Yeah. And I'm not sure which was, which I couldn't, I couldn't remember. 

1  

01:12:17

So they're supposed to 

0  

01:12:18

Be my brain. Sorry. The coroner then took a shim to the justice of the peace in Salem who went by the wonderful name Baptist Billy, his real name was William Woods. There was a review of the death and old Baptist. Billy acquitted Isham as an accessory to his brother's death. But he was overruled and Isham was rearrested and put in jail. Oh, he was being charged as an accomplice to George's murder and little burns suicide. But much like our previous murderers are, are murderous pals, not pals. 

0  

01:13:03

If you will. Jason Fairbank's and Micaiah harp. Remember them? 

1  

01:13:08

Well, I don't know their whole story. I had listened to that to all of them. Well, 

0  

01:13:12

Isham escaped from jail less than a month after his arrest and was never recaptured a alright, so it wasn't until 174 years later that any records were found of Isham after he escaped roughly six weeks after his escape, he enlisted in the U S infantry company under 

1  

01:13:47

What name? 

0  

01:13:49

This was right before the war of 1812. When the us declared war against England, he rose in the ranks and there are details, but he's a murderer and tiny details. Aren't important. Long story short, he ended up being a Sergeant. He was then killed on new year's Eve in 1814 at the battle of new Orleans. After he was killed a woman named Elizabeth, we assume it was his widow received a pension of $6 and 50 cents per month. For the next five years, it was about a hundred dollars. What was his name? 

0  

01:14:30

They never said that he changed it. How interesting from everything that I could find, Thomas Jefferson never officially commented on the murders that his nephews committed. Jefferson did say that he was aware of the depression and the entire Lewis family and that they all seem to share. It likely likely referring to Meriwether Lewis. Since at this time it was still believed that Mary weather's death was a suicide, but it wasn't great in a journal. Jefferson wrote governor Lewis had come from early life, been subject to hypochondriac affections. 

0  

01:15:14

It was a constitutional disposition in all the near branches of his family and were more immediately inherited by him from his father. They had not, however, been so strong as to give uneasiness to his family while he lived with me in Washington, I observed at times sensible depressions of mind, but knowing their constitutional source, I estimate their course by what I had seen in the family in 19 53, 19 53, Robert Penn Warren wrote a book. Well, it's not really a book. 

0  

01:15:54

It's kind of like a long, long form poem called brother to dragons. And this poem took the actions of the brothers and how it tested Jefferson's faith. Afterwards, there is another work written by Boynton Merrill, Jr. That's called Jefferson's nephews. It is said that the book is written kind of like a detective story, which is what today we would call like an investigative journalism piece. So what happened to Charles Lewis? 

0  

01:16:35

When the murders were committed? Charles was 59. He was now the only adult of six family members still living. Oh, he still had his unmarried daughters and grandchildren to take care of. Once Lilburn died, the court appointed guardians for his children and two of Lilburn children died before everything was settled. There isn't an exact death date for Charles that I could find, but it was in the year, 1831. Wow. And that is the story of George. 

1  

01:17:12

So sad, very 

0  

01:17:14

Sad. We don't really have a theories cause it's pretty cut and dry as to what happened. 

1  

01:17:24

It makes me sad though. It, 

0  

01:17:28

Like I said, it w it's a very, it was a very hard case to read. 

1  

01:17:34

Well, the fact that these two men did this in front of however many slaves were in the household at the time. So there were witnesses 

0  

01:17:44

To this many witnesses, 

1  

01:17:47

But it wasn't reported because nobody would listen to them. They couldn't report it. 

0  

01:17:53

Correct. They could not report it because they had been told while the entire event was happening. That if they did the same thing would happen to them, it was true. And you S you saw, yeah. You just saw what happened and you are terrified 

1  

01:18:10

Your life and because of the good old boy network. Oh. 

0  

01:18:15

Which is still alive and well today, we all know, 

1  

01:18:18

Well, 

0  

01:18:18

Slowly, slowly, it's dying, but it's a, 

1  

01:18:22

Oh gosh. Yes. But I mean, you, 

0  

01:18:26

We, we live in areas where that's definitely still the case, which is super unfortunate, but yeah. 

1  

01:18:32

But I mean, you knew that there were ways that they would get out of it. They would just 

0  

01:18:41

Wiggle 

1  

01:18:42

Free and that's, that's so frustrating. It's so frustrating to know that that would happen, you know, and you just eat, just feel so hopeless. I, I can't imagine having that feeling, being so frustrated. 

0  

01:19:01

So also imagine this too, is I just thought about this. You were made to reconstruct the kitchen house. Oh my gosh. Of which parts were hidden in the masonry, not only do you have to cook in the kitchen house where you saw 

1  

01:19:23

The things happen, 

0  

01:19:27

You are mere steps away from one where it happened. And two parts human remains that are built into the masonry right. Beside you, and you put it in there and you put it in there because you were forced to, and you have to work there every day. Yeah. And act like nothing happened. Cause if he did same thing would happen to you. 

1  

01:19:52

How psychologically scarring would that be? 

0  

01:19:57

Which exactly. And I mean, like 

1  

01:20:01

We talked about 

0  

01:20:01

Before, that was just thinking about that too, of the doctor who actually brought in, Hey, when these people are free, they need psychological help because they're not okay. Like this is, this is all messed up and they need something like they, they, we can't just say, Hey, you're free. Yeah, bye. You got like, yay. You've you've got to make sure you're okay. Which of course didn't happen. But yeah. I mean, and you see events like this, and this is just one of the events that we found out about and were reported, think of how many times things like this happened. 

0  

01:20:42

And it was never 

1  

01:20:43

Right. Well, and you know, I think of prisoners of war, things that happen, especially like in Vietnam and, and things, or, you know, in world war two and you know, people in the concentration camps and things, you know, 

0  

01:21:00

Oh, the Holocaust I can't, I mean, 

1  

01:21:03

Right. These people weren't given psychological aid. Some people like I haven't, I loaned my sister Corrie 10 boom's book, and I have not read it yet. I can't think of the name of the boat now, because I'm trying to tell you what it is, but she was in the Holocaust and she's, she's the only one in her family that made it out, I believe. And she came out on the other side and is a great Christian author. But her faith is what helped her through. And the reason she was in the concentration camps was because she was a Christian family, that they were helping Jewish people. 

1  

01:21:50

And her faith is what helped her through. So she had that, but a lot of people don't have that or you know, that they need something more, you know, people need some sort of help. I mean, I'm a Christian, but I need help with things, you know, and I'm not saying God's not enough. I'm not saying that. But you know, when you've been through something, you need some sort of help, you know, police officers who've been on really bad cases or fireman that had been on really bad cases, E emergency crews, they are given, you know, psychological evaluations and a chance to talk about it, to make sure they're okay. 

1  

01:22:36

You know, and these people did not have any, excuse me, any sort of space to talk about it. I just had to suck it up and move on. 

0  

01:22:49

We also know, unfortunately, with some of those psychological evaluations, some people just somehow scaped through them and they're not okay. And they don't take them seriously and they don't and they should be taken seriously. And, and yes, and not at all before anyone tries to DM me. Cause I'll be the one that gets it. We are not at all comparing slavery to prisoners of war. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm aware. I know. I I'm, I'm just making it immensely clear. Yes. That is not at all. What Lee is saying. No, I'm just saying a traumatic event. Traumatic experience. Yes. Traumatic event. And so I experienced something horrific. Correct. 

0  

01:23:28

And I'm sorry. No, you're fine. No, I just, I want, I, I, sometimes I understand how some people might have listened to something and it could be correct. And I just want to make it immensely clear that that's not at all what we are saying and yeah. And, and, and it's crazy to me that even back at that time, there, there were doctors out there who said this needs to happen. And I mean, they weren't listened to, but yeah. I mean, and, and it shows how strong these people are though. 

0  

01:24:08

And then how resilient. Exactly. And then to, you know, yeah, sure. Strong, you're resilient. It's in a situation that you shouldn't have to be. Right. And you shouldn't have, you should not have to be the bigger person we know that's not at all how it should be. And think of also the guilt you have for not saying anything because you're scared and because you're afraid it will happen to you. So you also, you have the trauma skills, you have the trauma of seeing what happened. You have the trauma of purely just being a slave and being in the position that you're put in, because you didn't ask for it. 

0  

01:24:53

You don't want to be there. You're being forced having to work in the same kitchen of which everything happened, going back and seeing it, reliving it every day, every day. And then also feeling guilty that either you didn't do anything or you didn't report it or you didn't stop it. Yeah. And none of that is none of that is anyone's fault who was in that room because I, and I understand being paralyzed with fear. I get that. I, I know that that happens in there so many levels to this of just one thing. 

0  

01:25:36

And it's just, like I said before, like, you know, people always say a drunk, mind, speak, sober thoughts. So this anger, this not even anger, this terrible nature of these two men has always been there. Yeah. It's not that this was not in, this was something that took hours. 

1  

01:26:04

Yeah. 

0  

01:26:05

It was not a quick, you can't say, oh, it was a crime of passion. No, nothing like that's ever excusable. And it's, it's just like you, are you serious? 

1  

01:26:18

Wow. How did the mom die? 

0  

01:26:20

She got sick. She just got, yeah. Lucy, she got sick and she died. And 

1  

01:26:25

How did the wife 

0  

01:26:26

Die? Same way. Same way. 

1  

01:26:29

I'm trying to, you know, see if somehow George could have been involved. 

0  

01:26:37

No, they both. Yeah. They both well in Lilburn and his first wife, Elizabeth did not live with them at the time when Elizabeth died. I'm 

1  

01:26:46

Just trying to think of some way that maybe 

0  

01:26:49

I think that based on what they said with him being ill grown, I think he was, George was a target for them because he might have been, like we said, he might have been smaller in stature. He might have been. And he was, he was 17. And I think, you know, yeah, it's, it's not, I'm not saying this in the way that, that it could be construed, but it's like, it's like a lion taking out the weakest antelope plate, you know? And, and I don't mean that in, in that sense, but that's, I think that is how it could be 

1  

01:27:27

The usual target. He was how he was the one that they took out there. 

0  

01:27:32

Just one to do that on, because he was younger, he was 17. He, you know, they did say 

1  

01:27:39

From what, all the way red, he was weaker and yeah, they were big bullies. 

0  

01:27:46

And they said that he disappeared in the middle of December for some time and then came back and it's like, 

1  

01:27:51

Had they already heard him once? 

0  

01:27:55

And could you just have not come back? Like, could you just, 

1  

01:28:00

Did they hurt him? And he, you know, they left him for dead. And then he came back. I mean, is that what happened? And I got mad that he came back. I mean, 

0  

01:28:08

And there's nothing. I tried to look up several different places, kind of, you know, why was he, you know, why did he disappear? Where did he go? I couldn't find anything that said anything about where he went or why he left, or even if they really cared. Like, I didn't even see anything that just said he, they were angry because he left, you know, like 

1  

01:28:31

He had run away like another group. 

0  

01:28:34

Right. I didn't see anything there that, that said anything like that. So it's a terrible story. But like I said, in the beginning, it's one that needs to be told because his story doesn't deserve to be lost. Correct. And just like we talk about before, how sometimes the way that a person's life ends can almost be just as important as how they lived, because how they died can sometimes cause a bigger movement than you're aware of. 

0  

01:29:30

Sure. Like with our very, like, with our very first case that we ever did, who would have thought Elma would have never known that her murder sparked an entire system of trials and murder and she never, she would have never known that. And it's, and it's unfortunate to say that someone's death could be, you know, almost important as the way that they lived in life. But you know, like we said, too, at that time it was illegal to murder a slave in Western Kentucky. 

0  

01:30:12

So it seems that this is a time where people are finally starting to wake up to that. And there are people, novel idea, weird, but you know, it's, it's like, even though he, you don't know what that murder could have, you don't know what can spark an idea in someone to wake them up to things that are happening. 

1  

01:30:46

Kevin has been horrible. Right. But good things that have come out of COVID number one must sweet puppy, Axel ha had a, an English Mastiff. He lived to be one week shy of 10 years old. And the last year of his life, my husband and I were able to both work from home and he ended up having bone cancer. And we know that the reason he had, he was able to hang on as long as he did in the last few months of his life were because we were at home with him and we were able to monitor his day. 

1  

01:31:26

I mean, each day we were able to see if we needed to give him a little more pain medicine, a little less and, you know, take him out, help him in and out. I mean, y'all, it was, it was pitiful. He lost a lot of weight. Like he was 130 pound dog. And he like, he lost a lot of weight, but we were able to monitor, but also our churches started live streaming services. And so outreach wise, that's a good thing that happened from COVID so coveted. I don't want another Kevin at I'm ready for it to be done with I'm tired of the COVID. I want it to go away. And I know I said the COVID it was, it was ironically, it was not like that. 

1  

01:32:07

You know, but I mean, if you look, you can find good that has come out of that. If you look at my friends, my, some of my friends and I would call that looking for lovelies. And if you look, you can find good, but you got to look, 

0  

01:32:22

Unfortunately not sure exactly what good came out of this one. I mean, it, it is a story that I think could have, I think it could have caused people to take, take a step back and look at a system that was very broken, to be more susceptible, to accepting change. 

1  

01:32:50

Hopefully that did happen. 

0  

01:32:51

Right. But I mean, this story was very, it was very difficult to find and which is aggravating because 

1  

01:32:59

Why aren't we telling these stories? Why, 

0  

01:33:01

Why are we not telling people what happened? And, and it's, and you can't erase things like this. 

1  

01:33:10

Right. And you know, you could, you could tell this story in high school, within abbreviated and yes. Description and abbreviated description, but these stories need to be told. I mean, we know, I mean, I'm an avid reader and in high school I was, you know, I've always been a big reader and I love period PCIs period pieces. And so, I mean, I was aware of such things because of the kinds of things that are rare, not everybody reads like that. And so they weren't aware. I mean, I remember we were reading something in my senior year in English, and we were talking about taking your Saturday night bath, you know, because you took a bath once a week to get ready and, and the kids didn't know what they were talking about, but you know, you're taking your bath for church and they didn't realize that FA you know, they talk about, oh, the, the phrase, throw the baby out with the bath water. 

1  

01:34:15

And they didn't know what that meant. And, you know, I explained that, you know, 

0  

01:34:22

Baby was the last one to get back into that bath water, 

1  

01:34:25

Especially when you had nine kids and, you know, the dad would go first, I'm sorry. 

0  

01:34:30

I know many children is what you mean too many, but, 

1  

01:34:34

You know, and, and people didn't realize that that was the case and what you did. And then once it got explained, they were like, oh, that's disgusting. We were like, well, that's what you did. I mean, you had to fill it up from the well or wherever. So, I mean, I knew that, but everybody didn't like that. So if you didn't know that now, you know, 

0  

01:34:55

You don't know now, you know, Mr. President. And if you don't know now, you know, which is, I guess the sole segue I send to the end of the episode. But what's funny is when we read these stories and then it's Thomas Jefferson, I only think of Debbie digs. So I imagined him being sassy, writing, like writing that letter back, being like, I am so sorry that you are not able to get a job, but I will not be the one assisting you in this endeavor sex to be you signed Dobby, dicks. That's all I can think of. 

0  

01:35:35

Anytime we talk about like Thomas Jefferson, I'm like it's Davida. And I, it just makes me wonder why even bring the son. Does he even bring the thunder? Somebody good, good God that, that guys we know, we know that pretty much in every episode we've had a reference to Hamilton, but really only talk with pretty much speed. I mean, it's just, oh God. I mean, the whole podcast got started because of a Hamilton song. So, you know, we have that to thank for being here. So, sorry, not sorry. Sorry for sorry, not sorry for the Hamilton references. 

0  

01:36:20

Sorry to like little, start your week out with this, but, but people need to know, and you can just think of the year of miracles and miracles. Think about the millions of squirrels and billions of birds. Just imagine the raft of squirrels with the passenger pigeons, just perched on top, just like, and the pigeons, the pigeons are like, man, these squirrels have been sleeping for ever. Bob, do you see this? You see what's happening, sleeping face down. 

0  

01:37:03

No, the squirrels could breathe under water, dude. You know, this girls could breathe underwater that one's big, his little legs and feet though. Don't look that big, how that happens, what you smell. So they don't either when they're under water. So it's odd. Do you guys, I mean, it's just like goddess. I mean, fuck over that millions of squirrels in a migration is just, oh gosh, that's all I can think. 

0  

01:37:49

And then imagine. So like for anybody who doesn't know and sorry, guys, we know, I know this episode's really long, but a group of crows is called a murder. And all I can think of is like, if pigeons were called that just like a murder of pigeons, billions of pigeons flying towards you, which these, these poor pigeons they're, they're gone now. They're dead no more. Oh goodness. So yeah, that's, it's our story for this week guys. We, what 

1  

01:38:29

A group of pigeons, One of the options is a dropping of Fijians. Okay. A passel of pigeons, Paso, a plague of pigeons, boom, 

0  

01:38:45

You look up and a plague of pigeons is flying straight towards you. The world isn't ending it, it would end. It would end. 

1  

01:38:55

One of my friends does not do two of my friends do not do birds. Their world would end. Like they will. 

0  

01:39:02

I wonder if like heart attack rates went up that year. Cause you know, some, some I'm sure some farmer was out there and he just sees this plague of pigeons and he just 

1  

01:39:14

I'm telling you right now I have one friend who she would, she would have a panic attack and she has asthma. So she would have a panic attack, asthma attack at the same time. I know she ends 

0  

01:39:24

Of pigeons. 

1  

01:39:25

Billions. She would panic attack her way into an asthma attack. 

0  

01:39:29

So we have a website where you confined all Owen, UC information. You're looking for real simple, just go to one nation under crime.com. We are one nation under crime on Facebook and Instagram and at, oh, in UC pod on Twitter. I'm pretty, I'm on Twitter on that Twitter. Surprisingly I'm on that Twitter a good bit. So 

1  

01:39:54

She say 

0  

01:39:55

On that Twitter and that Twitter, I'm saying like on that account, like I'm on that. I'm on that account. She's 

1  

01:40:01

A tweet that Twitter. 

0  

01:40:05

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0  

01:41:01

Right. And they're, they're, they're pretty cool. They're waterproof dishwasher proof. Fade-proof pretty cool. You can put them on anything sticker today. Yes. So yes, if you would do that, that would be great. We do have a Patrion. If you want to help out in that way, you can. And thanks for sticking around this long. If you stuck around this long and you have a complaint about our podcast, why did you stick around this long? We don't want you to review the podcast. If it's a five star review, then you will get a sticker. And, and I don't know, maybe if it's not a five star review for you. 

0  

01:41:43

Alright. So, and always, please do leave a comment with those because it does show up better. So thanks for listening to us this week. We will see you here. Same time, different crime next week. And remember there isn't always Liberty and justice for all. Goodbye. Bye. You're welcome.