1805: Dominic Daley and James Halligan

You are listening to one nation under crime, a chronological true crime podcast. Each week we go through our nation's history and discuss one case from each year starting in 1800. I'm Kayla and I'm Leah And we're to episode seven, 

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00:00:19

Lucky number seven, 

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00:00:20

Finally. Seven lucky number. Huh? Do you have a lucky number? 

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00:00:26

Oh, I have a lucky number, but I do like the number eight for financial reasons, but I'm unusual. I like it. Cause it's symmetrical. 

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00:00:36

I like the number three. Why? I don't know, but like my, so a lot of y'all don't know, but I actually am OCD very. And so one of my things is numbers and I like synchronicities and numbers and I've ended up figuring out that threes are a number that I like. So not to pinpoint my location, but my address is two 10. Right. So if you add the one in the two, you get three, but if you add the two to 10, you get 12, right? Well, you can take 12 and you can divide it by three and then it goes to four. 

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00:01:19

And if you divide four by two, then it goes to two. I'm very, very weird. Well, 

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This is the reason I like 

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00:01:24

The eight. So I like numbers that can divide by three or two. Okay. But I do it in my head all the time. Like with any number, like I could look at the time and I could do it. I could do. And that's like apparently a, like a coping mechanism for people with OCD. 

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00:01:41

That's why you got excited when it was 1, 2, 3, 4. 

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Yeah. Earlier we were recording and Leo is like, it's 1234. And I was like, oh, that's a synchronicity number. Like it's 1, 2, 3, 4. It's it's exciting. So 

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00:01:53

Yes, she gasped and I thought something was wrong with like the sound and no, no, she was. I mean, I like it when it's 1, 2, 3, 4, cause it lines up. But, well, the other reason I liked the number eight is because it looked like a smell, man. 

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00:02:06

I could see that. I could see why you would like that. 

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And it's even, I like even numbers. 

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00:02:13

See, I don't necessarily dislike or like even, or odd numbers. It's just weird. I don't know. So anyways, I was telling my therapist one time about like, oh yeah, like I do this thing with numbers. And like I do this and this. And he goes, yeah, that's the OCD tray. Now. I was like, really? And he goes, yeah, it's a, it's like a calming thing for people who have OCD and anxiety. And he said, it's, it's your way of making sense of something around you? And he said, it's your way of controlling different things. He said like time or, or different locations. He said, it's your way, subconsciously of controlling that space around you. 

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00:02:56

It's very interesting. 

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Nothing about is calling to me. 

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00:03:01

So my old address was 1 0 3. So if you add one and you add three, you get four, you can confide about two. Yeah. But I didn't like adding the 10 to the three. Cause that'd be 13. And that doesn't divide by anything. But it's very upsetting. I will say every address 

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That has been an even number. 

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00:03:25

But I did like that even if it was 13. So even with numbers, if you look at a 13, you take the one, you add it to the three that's four, still divided by two. I look at numbers that way too. There you go. 

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00:03:36

Off on a rabbit trail. 

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00:03:38

We really did. Sorry guys. Anyway, supposedly this is the lucky number and we're on episode seven, you guys have been picking up some traction on, on our downloads and we appreciate that. We very much appreciate it. And y'all are clearly telling people about our podcast because we got listeners every weigher everywhere. And we 

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00:04:04

Are okay with 

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00:04:05

That. Like we now have another listener in London. Awesome. So if you're listening, yes. I saw your download. We've got some, I mean like we've got multiples in California, somebody in the Bronx. So I mean like just Atlanta, I don't know who found us in Atlanta, but hi, because y'all have been loving our podcasts because that's the number one area that our podcast is downloaded as a banner will be at 

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00:04:31

The Fox and all this. I'm just saying, 

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00:04:33

Yes, we will be at the Fox, but it's just so crazy. So like we appreciate it so much. You all are clearly telling people about the podcast and you all are finding it. However, you're finding it. We're not performing 

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00:04:43

At the Fox. I want to clarify that 

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00:04:46

One day, one day people, one day we will do a live show at the Fox and I will die. I just I'll walk out on stage and just collapse. This what'll happen. But yeah. So thanks guys. We appreciate it so much. And as we are in episode seven, we are going to be talking about Marcus Lyon, Dominic daily and James Halligan and Halligan. And this is our episode for 1805. Also. I just looked at the clock and it's one 11, which pleases me equals three. Anyways, welcome to recording with me guys. 

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00:05:31

So this episode, this week is pretty interesting. We are going to deal with some prejudice, which isn't, it's not obviously how about say which prejudice. Isn't great. Duh, I just wanna throw it out there, throw that out there. But this is an interesting case of kind of the religious prejudice that was going on in the country at this time. So it's very interesting and we'll get into it and I'm sure we'll have some good discussion about it. So we're going to go to our sources. Of course, always Wikipedia God, such a good site. 

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00:06:14

I always remember in high school, Leah doesn't remember this. When I was in high school, when we had to do research papers, when we had to do research papers, our teachers were always like, Wikipedia is not a source. It is not a source. Don't use Wikipedia. And now everybody's like, I mean, I found it on Wikipedia and it's like, 

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00:06:35

When I was in high school, we were in denting how to site off of the worldwide with 

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Just such a dark time. Anyway, 

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I had to type my papers in my parents' bedroom of the computer. 

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00:06:52

Hey, I had to do that for a while anyways. So we got Wikipedia. We got the encyclopedia Britannica website, a website called executed today, 

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Executed today, 

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Executed today. That's and then this is a, I don't want to say paper. It's not really like a, it's not really like a research paper or something, but it was a document called the murder trial of Halligan and daily north Hampton, Massachusetts, by the honorable Robert Sullivan associate justice of Massachusetts Supreme court honorable, 

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Honorable. 

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00:07:37

I love it. Honorable Robert Sullivan presiding. I know, which is funny cause they're in Massachusetts not 

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And it just, it gives you that stuff. Then I act doesn't you say, 

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00:07:54

But I did get a lot of info from that document. It was very in depth. Very good document to read and had a lot of really good information for that time. It was written more, I won't say recently, not like within the past 10 years or so, but it was not written in 1805, which makes it more readable for me. And yes, I did say executed today. That's a website. I'll I'll explain it. So as we've discussed in other episodes, it's real hard to find cases in these years. 

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00:08:35

So I kind of reverse engineer my searches and as morbid as it is this website called executed today lists all the people executed in a specific year. Okay. So 

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00:08:57

DOD or who was exiting. 

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00:08:59

So it's saved to my bookmarks because what I have to do is I have to look at who was executed that year. 

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00:09:08

So Brad I've added another bookmark. 

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00:09:14

My NSA agent, Brad is like, should do on over there. 

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00:09:19

Let's see, you've edited your good 

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00:09:20

Murders. You don't look good. So, but the way that I have to do it is I have to look up on that website and see who was executed in a specific year and then take their name, type it back into Google with the year to try and see if I can find a case. 

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00:09:38

See, I'm learning how she does her job. I'm just, I'm just here to talk about it. That's all. I mean, people that I know are like, oh, I see you've got a podcast that is so cool. And I'm like, I mean, you could congratulate me and I'm having a lot of fun. All our best to do is show up and talk. That's all I got to do. She does the hard stuff and I'm loving it. I got my pretty pink headphones. I get to talk to the critters. All the creditors. 

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00:10:02

Yeah. I feel ever hear anything, any scurrying in the background. It's one, it's either the cats or the dog. There, there are mascots. And if you follow us on Instagram, which you should, you will see our research assistant, who I might be firing. 

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00:10:19

She's not allowed Claire. 

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00:10:21

So yes, we have Claire knocks and Fletcher. Those are Fletcher's the dog. And then Claire and knots are the cat. So if you ever hear anything in the background, it's just our mascots scurrying. So yeah, that's executed today.com. It's good website, website, get information, which it's it's, it's just interesting because I'll have to look it up and then it'll tell you like why the person was executed the day they were executed and a bunch of stuff. And so it's interesting because you'll see what people are executed for. And not that it's ever funny, that someone's executed. 

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00:10:54

It's interesting to see crops though. I enjoy not enjoy. It might be interesting to see the different crime. It's like 

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00:11:02

Horse theft. 

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There's a big deal. 

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It's just so funny to go back and look and like, oh, okay. 

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00:11:12

But it might've been like repeated horse theft or it may have been like a whole like corral full of horses. 

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00:11:21

Sorry. My mind went somewhere else for a second about horse anyways. 

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00:11:26

No, your daughter's had horses. No. No. Okay. Continue. Well. 

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00:11:33

Oh goodness. Okay. So we're going to go on to the events that were going on in 1805. We've got a pretty good, some interesting ones. January 11th, the Michigan territory is created April 27th, the United States and Berbers attack the trip <em></em> at Tripoli. I can't say it because of what it's related to. And I can't, I don't know if it's triple Litton anyway. City of Dharna and this is where the song shores of Tripoli come from from the whole, yeah. 

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00:12:14

We fight trees, battles on the sea. We will fight for. Right. And freedom. Anyways. That is for those of you who don't know that is the Marines. Yes. That's like the fight song, I guess is the best. Yeah. It's the it's each armed force has their own hands. So June 5th is the first recorded tornado in tornado alley, which is, was Southern Illinois. I'm not sure if it's still a hundred percent in the same area. I didn't Google that honestly should have, but we're, I'm privy to our own tornado alley in Alabama. 

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00:12:54

So June 11th, Detroit burned to the ground. Most of the city was destroyed and that was the great fire of 1805. I think that's the one that started in a barn. And then it took like the whole city down Chicago. Then what was it in Detroit? Nope. I think this one was started in a house. I read something on it, but that was Chicago. The great fire of Chicago. I'm getting them mixed up. Which Detroit? Chicago? Not same place. No, not even close. So November says same country. Same country. Yes we are. We are in America. So same country at least. 

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00:13:34

There's that? November 7th, the Lewis and Clark expedition arrived at the Pacific ocean. Not specific to different things. Pacific. Could you be more Pacific? Well, no, because I can be more Atlantic if you want me to. I'm a smart, you know, so Alec kidness December 26, the Pennsylvania academy of fine arts was established in Philadelphia. Somebody got a good Christmas gift. So yeah, we finally made it through the events of 1805. 

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00:14:15

Congrats. So, so onto our story to murder November 10th, 1805 Marcus lion's body is found in a stream near Springfield, Massachusetts. Was he lying around guys? And she will take that back so hard when she finds out what happened to him? Yes. Marcus one. Okay. 

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00:14:55

So April 24th, 1806. So the following April, it was November when he was found April, the trial of Dominic daily and James Halligan begins in north Hampton, Massachusetts, and June 5th, 1806 daily and Halligan were hanged for the murder of Marcus Lyon in front of a crowd of 15,000. Well, we'll get to it. So Springfield, Massachusetts was founded in 1636 as a Agawam plantation under the administration of the Connecticut colony. 

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00:15:35

This quote plantation is not a plantation. It's not the plantation. You think of kinda thought maybe it was not a happy place. It's not, it's not that kind of plantation, which is why I put plantation in quotes. That's what they air close this way. Yeah. The quote plantation, because it was it kind of the way that I've researched it. It was a location, but it was not, it was the name. It wasn't like, oh, that was a plantation. It was the Agawam plantation. So anyways, at this time, the general court of Massachusetts protected the Agawam by colonial law and the Agawam, like I said before, it was an Indian tribe that was in this area. 

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00:16:28

And along with that came the protection of the Agawam land rights and their crops. Let's see, they were defended by the English colonials who inhabited the area. And the Agawam had an open invitation to enter Puritan homes in the area. And many times they would show up for dinner. So it's like, it's, it's not at all what people think of like in that time, because people would always think that like the colonists and the Indians were against each other. And so it's so funny to hear this story of them like, oh, hi, come on in for dinner. Like they would just show up. 

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00:17:08

It is it's so wholesome. It's how you want be. So in 1641, the town was renamed Springfield and joined the Massachusetts bay colony as an agriculture and trading post later, the town would be a stop on the underground railroad. And today it is the largest city in Western new England. A few things that kinda came from this area were the first American dictionary, the first American gas powered automobile and the first machinery for interchangeable parts. 

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00:17:50

Interesting. Yes. So interesting, interesting area. But I just love that story of, they would just kind of pop in for dinner, just pop over. This was good. She got, you got, you got extra. Of course we have extra anyways. Just add some 

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00:18:06

Water to the soup. 

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00:18:07

Yes. So this story is a little different where a lot of other stories, we kind of go through someone's life and then kind of go into how they died. And unfortunately, this story begins at the end of someone's life. And then the story goes from there. It was Saturday, November 9th, 1805. When a man named John bliss found a horse in his pasture, this is pretty odd considering that the horse still on still like hat on his saddle and bridle and for anybody who's not familiar with horses, the bridal is the piece that goes around their head that usually has rains attached to it. So it was pretty uncommon, especially with bridles. 

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00:18:48

You don't want to leave them on horses. It can be very, very dangerous. My, my parents have horses, so this toner this, but yeah, you don't want to leave the bridle on the horse. It's very dangerous to do that. So for someone to walk out to their pasture and see a horse with a saddle and a bridle on it with no one around, not a 

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00:19:08

Responsible horse owner right there. 

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00:19:10

So the man tied the horse beside the road and he just kind of hopes that the owner would come by and it was a mayor. So, so she, so someone would come and pick her up, especially, Hey, got your 

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00:19:24

Horse. 

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00:19:26

Like, Hey, how's that? Hey, like, Hey, like, Hey for a horse. Hey, thanks for that. What do you feed a horse? Hey anyways, sorry. We are slap happy today. Stick with us guys. This could be an interesting, this could be Muff part two stuff. It return to the mother 

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00:19:53

That is never to be spoken of. Again, 

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00:19:55

Love that episode. They love it. They think it's the funniest that my mom was talking about. Her friend, who was listening to the show and she was laughing so hard. And one of our coworkers was listening to it. And she came to my office and said that she was listening to it on her way to and from the lake. And she could not stop laughing. And this is somebody who also worked when me and Leo worked together every day. This is someone who works with us every day. So she was like, I couldn't, I couldn't stop laughing. 

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00:20:36

Oh my God. 

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00:20:38

So I've decided that we shall that topic that you just said like three times that you know, I'm not going to say ever again, that shops love Harry Potter. That's now the, she who shall not be named. She Shall not be named. That's what we shall say. Now. 

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00:20:55

The beaver that shall not, I told you guys stay stick in there. This is part two 

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00:21:09

Tellers Fletcher Fletcher's login. 

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00:21:11

My dog is sitting beside me and he's like, can you people just get on with it anyways? So it was very odd that the horse was there. And so he tied her up to the fence post beside the road. And she still had also saddlebags on and there was food inside of them and letters. So we knew journey. Somebody has to be looking for this horse. Nobody came by to claim her. So bliss made his neighbors aware of the odd occurrence and they decided that they would look around for anyone in distress. 

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00:21:51

Because surely that is the only reason, especially in this time. Yeah. This is the only reason somebody is going to leave their horse is because something has happened to them. Eventually the search came to the Chickopee river Schick, Chickopee say like a chickpea chicken P like a Chicco stick, chicken beets, like Golinda with a gun. So they got to the Chickopee river and a coat could be seen in the shallow water 

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00:22:26

That there was a 

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00:22:27

Body attached to that. It was a man around six feet, tall sea lion 

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00:22:31

In the river. 

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00:22:34

I can't, I can't guys. Anyway, I don't mean 

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00:22:40

To make light of this gentlemen. So 

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00:22:42

Sorry. Here is your trigger warning for this section. This is the only trigger warning in the show. This is a low level description, so it's not too bad. It'll take us just, just about 30 seconds or so to get through, but it is gonna kind of describe how he was found. So we're going to start it in 3, 2, 1 in the writeup, by the honorable Robert Sullivan, he stated quote, the upper part of the head over the cerebrum and over the left eye was in dented. And the back part of his head had been smashed to a pulp. 

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00:23:24

The ball of a small caliber pistol was lodged in his ribs. It was deduced from the appearance of the shrubbery and the area that the body had been dragged some distance before it was deposited in the shallows of the river, a large stone weighing 65 pounds had been placed on its head to prevent its rising. He hikes. And that's the end of the description for that. So if you were waiting for the wrap up that that's the end. Yeah. So pretty, pretty brutal way to find someone, especially if you're just trying to find somebody who like, Hey, did you lose your horse? 

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00:24:06

And you walk up on that. That's pretty cool. So it wasn't really hard to find out who the man was by the letters that were found in the saddle bags of his horse. And it was Marcus Lyon. He was an ACE. It was said that he was a respectable quote, robust rope bust, a six foot tall, robust farmer from Woodstock, Connecticut. He was on his way to New York to get farm equipment for the upcoming summer. So keep in mind, this isn't November, this is a farming area. So it is November. And he's going to New York to get former equipment for the summer, which is not uncommon, right? 

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00:24:48

So he was seen November 9th, riding his horse on a road between Boston and Springfield. Of course, Boston being Boston, Massachusetts. As soon as his body was found, the citizens of the town began an inquest where a 13 year old boy testified that he had actually seen two men in the area on the day, lion was seen riding his horse. The men supposedly that this kid saw were both wearing sailors clothing, and one of them was carrying a bundle. So the little Bendel, it's a stick with a handkerchief at the end, you put over your shoulder Bendel to the word Bendel. 

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00:25:33

So the governor it's very, yeah. So I wonder if that's where a bundle comes from possibly because it's bundled up on, you have a bundle bleed, it becomes a bundle. It's a bundle, a bundle and a stick, a bundle bundle. Interesting. So yeah, that's what a bundle is. The more, you know, the governor offered a reward of $500 for the identification of the murders. Would you like to guess how much money that is? You're not good at this. No, it's more than that. Okay. So we get $500 in 1805. What do you think? Come on $20,000, 11,000 overshot it. 

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00:26:20

So yeah, $11,413 was the equivalent of 500 in that day. And didn't say 5,000 true. And immediately the governor put this reward out for people to get. So this was pretty, pretty major sum of money for the time. And it's no surprise that people were extremely eager to find them in and collect that reward for themselves. One of these was a major general Mattoon who was high sheriff of Hampshire county. It was said that he was quote, greatly interested himself in measures to detect them. 

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00:27:00

Unfortunately, even today in cases like this, where there's such a high reward, where there's just a lot of sensationalism around what happened, it's not uncommon for people to start pointing a finger at others without having all the facts. I'm shocked. I have never even thought of that happening. It was Monday morning. The day after line was found, when the sheriff formed a group of men together to try and find these supposedly two men and sailors garb on Tuesday, the group brought in two men who quote, fit the description, but you said bit fit. 

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00:27:46

I was like, what do they bite? They bid it, take a bite out of crime. We're not related guys, but we are. These men were Dominic Daley and James Halligan. They were found in a Tavern along the same road that the 13 year old boy said he saw the two men on walking before daily was in the bathroom shaving, which will come in to play later. That will come important. He had a long beard before and Halligan was in the kitchen and newspaper at the time said quote, when the arresting officers told the two Irish men that they had a warrant for their arrest daily said for what they were told for murder, both protested their innocence and related that they were traveling to New York from Boston, where they resided daily for the purpose of collecting a small sum of money due to him and Halligan to visit his cousin there in quotes, the men were taken back to Springfield where lion was found and then moved to the county jail and north Hampton. 

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00:28:54

So Dominick Daley and James Halligan were Irish immigrants who came to America around 1800 daily was born around 1770 and Halligan around 1778, making them in 35 and 27 respectively at the time of their arrest, both of the men lived and worked in Boston once they immigrated. And according to one paper, Halligan had arrived only six months before he was arrested. But another said he had been in America for at least four years. That's a little bit of a discrepancy there. Big gap daily. The older of the two men had come to the states about two years before. 

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00:29:34

And he had a wife, a child, a mother, and a brother who all lived with him in the same home. Woof, it's important to note a few other things going on in the area at this time, namely prejudice against Irish immigrants. Oh yeah. That 

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00:29:50

Was a big deal. 

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00:29:51

So it, yes. And that weighs heavily in this case, unfortunately. Yeah. So the time of this case is right after the revolutionary war and in new England, many of the residents were British Protestants. So it was not an Irish war. It was not at all, kept a secret that Protestants hated Roman Catholics. And there was a deep seated rivalry just between the British or the really the English British and Irish in general. There was so sad 

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00:30:26

To me to 

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00:30:28

Sad the rivalry was all, it was mainly in Europe, but it didn't prevent the prejudice from coming to America as Europeans immigrated over in fact, and a lot of people who studied history in the United States, if you went to school here, this was the term that we did learn in school around this time. And it was even still 50 years, 55, 0 after this case happened that there were still job advertisements that specifically said, no Irish need apply. So still 50 years after this case, they were still saying, you know, we don't want Irish working here, which is really sad. 

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00:31:13

So, you know, and I know that Boston is an area where there are a lot of Irish immigrants, even today. There's a lot of people who are there who do have Irish roots. 

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00:31:22

Boston Celtics actually should be pronounced Celtic, but we're not going to go there. You're not going to slip the hairs, even though it bothers me, whatever. I mean, I'm Scottish, but still. 

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00:31:33

So, which is funny, cause I'm Irish. I have some Scottish in me obviously, but we're laid on that side. No, but I have some Scottish Irish British. I'm a ha it's heavily British is what mine is. So I 

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00:31:50

Mean, half of me is just white, 

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00:31:52

Just white, just white. It's me just pale, just pale pasty, translucent. Some may say Casper like it's 

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00:32:02

Porcelain and we rock. It is. 

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00:32:05

So once the men were taken to jail, they were not allowed to talk to anyone except the appointed prosecutor for the prosecutor. His name was John hooker. It's low hanging fruit. 

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00:32:23

I mean, I just had to look 

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00:32:25

Away of paper and the area called the Hampshire Federalist published an editorial on January 7th, 1806, which describes the reactions and feelings of the locals regarding the murder quote, that the minds of the good people should be shocked with the late murder of Marcus Lyon on the high road at noon day is perfectly natural and would be right to a certain extent. But the panic excited by this event goes to an extreme, it magnifies every assault to a manslaughter every sudden or accidental death to a bloody assassination in quote. 

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00:33:05

So this reminds me of our first case when with levy weeks, when the paper reported that Elma Sans had been willfully murdered. Remember that one? So this reminds me of the same thing where basically they're saying in the paper any other day, you find a man dead on the side of the road. Sure. But the second you bring in outsiders to it, it's an assassination. It's, you know, it's, it's manslaughter, which this is before they even went to court. So just like that, you know, just getting everybody else riled up as usual, it seems like in this time it was just common practice to wildly speculate and then make the facts line up with the speculation, which is kind of like in some TV shows. 

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00:34:02

And even in some cases that you see where the person that they want to accuse, they make it line up to the crime, neat and tidy. They try to backtrack. It's like you find the person that you want and then figure out how they did it. So that's kind of how this, how this seems in this time at any rate, the men were held in jail for five months before they were tried in court. And weren't granted a defense attorney until 48 hours before the trial. That's not cool if we remember again, back to lovey weeks, this was still in the time that you were appointed an attorney and it wasn't uncommon for a judge to not allow you to obtain your own counsel while weeks as trial. 

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00:34:55

As we did talk about before kind of set a precedent for defendants to have the right to counsel. It was still not widely accepted. Keep in mind that case was in New York. This is in Massachusetts. 

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00:35:05

And also he was granted counsel. Exactly. No. Yeah. He didn't have very much time to prepare. And I say he, because we all know that there were not women who practice law at this time. 

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00:35:20

Yeah. And this, and you know, baby steps is also exactly. And with, with saying that, you know, a judge allows you the right. Also keep in mind, these are Irish immigrants and a mainly, you know, personal. Yeah. You're in a British Protestant area. The, these are Irish immigrants and it's very easy for a judge who has prejudice against them to say, no, you don't need attorneys or, well, we'll give you some, but it's going to be 48 hours before your trial. You don't have to tick the boxes. We're gonna, I mean, we're gonna check and say, oh, we gave him that. 

0  

00:36:01

Yeah. We'll give you what we're supposed to, but it's going to be in our own time. Yeah. I mean, it's just sad. So there were two justices of the Supreme judicial court convened to hear the trial for the men. The first being a judge, Samuel Sewell, who was a direct descendant and namesake of one of the main judges in the Salem witch trials. Interesting. Yeah. I saw the name Samuel Sewell and I was like, I know that name. So yeah, he's a direct descendant of one of the judges for the Salem witch trials. Very fitting in this situation. I'd add, the second was judged. 

0  

00:36:41

Theodore Sedgwick like Kira Sedgwick, like that's married to Kevin bacon like that, that last name, whose house was the first to be destroyed during the farmers uprising in the Shea rebellion. So people didn't love him. The trial couldn't be held in Springfield due to the already prejudiced feelings towards the men before the trial began shot. Right. So this is a instance of, I literally just had change of venue. This is, I know I just had that in my head and then it popped in, so this, if you could have seen that on her face, it was something to behold and welcome. 

0  

00:37:26

This is just me. So yes, this is a case where Kayla always every day it was like a new person came in. It's it's like it zaps in my head all of a sudden. So because they moved it from Springfield, north Hampton, this is what's called a change in venue, which a lot of times will happen in a case. And sometimes defense attorneys will. And I know we probably have attorneys that are listening that are cringing at the way I'm describing this, but it's, we apologize for that. I apologize. But you know, I, even though I probably should have gone to law school. 

0  

00:38:08

I didn't, this is ever too late. That's what my boyfriend always tells me is that it's, he's like, you totally should have gone to law school. So, but a change of venue is basically when the defense attorney presents to the court or really to the judge to change the trial to a different location due to the wide knowledge of that case in the area. There's a lot of instances where some judges will not allow it. There's some cases where they do and they change it to a different county. 

0  

00:38:54

If anybody is familiar, you know, with some different cases out there. And I can think of a few off the top of my head, but where maybe some people wanted to change because of racial issues. They wanted to change a case from a majority white county to one that has more diversity to where cause think about it. I mean, a jury is supposed to be, it's supposed to be a jury of your peers. If there are no peers in that jury, it's not a jury of your peers. So it kind of works both ways where that could happen and you would want to change a venue for that reason. 

0  

00:39:37

A lot of people will do it because they are in a more diverse county and they want it to be a majority white county. So they will try and move it to a different area because they want that jury pool. So a lot of different reasons of why it could happen. It could be malicious. It could not be. I know that in a lot of other trials, there's some places that you couldn't get a change when you, I don't think the OJ case, I don't think they even asked for a change of venue in that one. I could, I could very well be wrong about that, but, but there's a lot of times where, you know, they'll ask and the judge will not grant it because there's no basis for it. 

0  

00:40:17

But when there are very well-known cases around an area, it's not a bad idea to try and get that change of venue because you do want an unbiased jury. Unfortunately, in this case, they're you weren't going to get an unbiased jury. So they changed the venue to the north Hampton meeting house, which was in the same town that the men were being held in jail, Thomas gold and Edward Upham, or the two men appointed to defend daily and how plugins attorneys were hobos don't know could be wrong, probably wrong going past it. 

0  

00:41:02

But if your best shot, his last name was up on as well. But it, he was, it doesn't appear that he was related to the one who, who the, he was not related to the other attorney who also had the same last name and Francis Blake who Francis Blake was the youngest attorney on this case. And this sir Francis Drake, Francis Blake, this, these names and this I can't, I know I'm sorry, George Clinton as anyway. So let's just say that. So this is a case I'm sorry, attorneys. 

0  

00:41:45

I believe now when you try a case, if it's a capital murder case, I believe you have to be an attorney for a certain amount of time before you can be a defense attorney for a capital murder case. From what I found in my research, when they were talking about it, the main thing that they said was that Francis Blake would not today be allowed to try a capital case because of his experience. He didn't have enough experience to try. So I believe that's believed that's what it is, could be the same day could be wrong, probably wrong, leaving education major. I got a new attorney, general James Sullivan prosecuted the case with the help of John hooker. 

0  

00:42:30

The trial doesn't have any official transcripts that have been found. There was an account by a quote member of the bar of Hampshire county that is mainly written just as questions and answers. But other than that, this is the only records really found for this case or the recorded verdict and receipts for the trial expenses. Other than that, there's really no from transcripts as to what everything that people said, but this is what we can glean from what happened. There were 24 witnesses called by the prosecution and from the few records taken at the time, this is what we can kind of surmise happened. 

0  

00:43:16

24 witnesses. Okay. Continue moving on. Just, just a thought Def it can exactly. It's it's it's crazy. So definitively it can be said that Marcus Lyon was killed on November 9th, the 1805 by a combination of factors, which included being shot by a pistol, a large rock being placed on his head and his head being immersed in the water. The day of the murder was very cloudy and the road lion was found. He was not found far off of the road, but it was a very busy road that was traveled by like hundreds of people. 

0  

00:43:59

A day. The 13 year old boys said that he saw two men around 200 feet away and quote sailors garb on the road near where lion was murdered at around one in the afternoon. Several minutes later, the 13 year old saw two men with a horse around a hundred feet away from him. But he couldn't say that they were the same men he had seen just before and sailors garb, which to me, were they wearing sailors garb when you saw them or were they not? Because they'd get 13 minutes. They changed. And all they had on their shoulder was a bundle. Anyway, which I nailed though, is a stick. 

0  

00:44:41

So the horse the men had with them looked like the one that John bliss had found in his pasture. The next day, the boy lived around a quarter of a mile from the scene of the crime and said he never heard a shot go off. He was chasing hogs when he came upon one of the men that he saw with the horse and then the boy ran home because he was cold, cold, cold in Massachusetts, in November. So Daley and Halligan were identity chasing hogs. He lived on a farm. He was doing it like chasing them to like corral them into an area. 

0  

00:45:22

But that's what they said it as is that he was chasing hogs. But yes, he was kind of corralling them, making sure that folks can be, they can be real Maine. So daily and Halligan or identified by the boy and a lineup right after the men were arrested. But when the lineup occurred daily and Halligan were the only two in shackles and probably the only two that he'd never seen before. That is a possibility. But to me, if you've got a lineup of say seven men and two of them, two of them have handcuffs on. 

0  

00:46:06

You're going to think. Maybe I know it's very, it's very weird. Which again, guys, feel I could listen to our talks beforehand. Just again, this said where they said a lineup just reminded me again as Brooklyn nine nine. If y'all haven't again, if you haven't looked it up, give it a Goog and give it a duke. And Leah doesn't listen to true crime obsessed guys, if you can't tell, so give it a gig. And it's the Brooklyn nine, nine police lineup now, number five. 

0  

00:46:50

So she's like number five. Number five is the one that shot my brother. Oh, I forgot about that. If you have not watched it, one of the greatest, greatest cold intros to a show of all time and it, it makes me laugh every time. So it comes to that little silk. We don't have rights to it. So we can't say more than eight seconds. Can't be sued. We don't have money, guys. Not that money. We don't make money for this. If you would like to go to our Patrion. Nope. So anyways, the 24 witnesses were only asked 24 witnesses, right? 

0  

00:47:36

20 or only asked 44 questions total by all four of the men who made up the defense team, I sat as less than two questions per witness. The defense team was not able to call any witnesses to the stand because of the short amount of time they had to prepare before the trial, 

1  

00:48:01

That was helpful. That was helpful. 48 case. Very helpful for the defense. 

0  

00:48:06

Very helpful. Also at the time in criminal cases, the defendant could not take the stand and their own defense. And the accused was named quote in competent to testify. It wasn't until 66, 0 at 16. 

1  

00:48:28

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. They were incompetent competent to testify. If 

0  

00:48:33

They're incompetent to 

1  

00:48:34

Testify on their own behalf. Does that not mean like they're meaning like guilty Then they should be, you know, given some mental health. Oh wait, I'm sorry. That's not a thing. I'm sorry. That was a dibble inside of or something predicting believe in the devil. I'm sorry that that came out. But, 

0  

00:48:55

But that's back then. It's like people who had schizophrenia, they would do. Oh, they possessed not the case, but yeah, they would say that if, if you were the defendant in the case, you did not have the right to go to the stand, to defend yourself that has incompetence testify in Syria. And 60 years later, the law was changed 16. So this was an 18. I was six. So 1866, this law finally changed where a defendant could actually go up and testify on their own behalf for their own defense. 

0  

00:49:36

So basically that it would have 

1  

00:49:37

Helped in any way. Really. 

0  

00:49:39

How frustrating is that? You don't have any time to call anyone to the stand. And 

1  

00:49:44

I mean, at least he would have had a shot. At least he could have said something and said something, 

0  

00:49:50

But it wouldn't have, unfortunately we'll find out it wouldn't have helped Halligan. His attorney Francis Blake argued on behalf of his client and he said this to the defense. It's a little long, but for this to be the youngest attorney of the four that were there for the defense, this is a very good kind of closing statement. Quote. I allude to the invertebrate hostility against the people of that wretched country and from which the prisoners have immigrated for which the people of new England are peculiarly distinguished pronounced, then a verdict against them. 

0  

00:50:36

Tell them that the name of an Irishman is among us, but another name for a robber or assassin that ever man's hand is lifted against him. That when a crime of unexampled atrocity is perpetrated among us, we look around for an Irishman that because he is an outlaw with him, the benevolent Maxim of our law is reversed. And that the moment he is accused, he is presumed to be guilty until his innocence appears. The mind is infected in common with others, with that national prejudice, which would lead him to pray, to prejudge the prisoners because they are Irishman all that to say, this is not an arrest of you are innocent until proven guilty. 

0  

00:51:30

You saw these men were Irish and you said they were guilty before they even came in here. And so that's what he's saying is any time anything happens in this area, we look around for someone who's Irish, because surely they did it. Don't call me Shirley. But 

1  

00:51:46

You know, it's one of my sister's favorite jokes, 

0  

00:51:50

You know, it's like, oh, okay. So anytime anything happens and it's fair. What he's saying is very true. Yeah. Anytime something happens, you're looking around for someone who's Irish. I mean, that's just not it's, 

1  

00:52:05

It is frustrating, but it's true. And I mean, to an extent, it's it still happens today. Yes. Maybe not Irish, but in, in different situations it still happens. And it's, it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating when you see that. And you're like, really, you know, why don't we follow some facts? Why don't we really use our brains and really, you know, see what the truth is. And not just assume because this person is this way or, you know, say it 

0  

00:52:37

Because this person is black or they're a person of color or, or 

1  

00:52:41

They are Asian, 

0  

00:52:42

Asian, or they are in the, under the poverty line or, you know, just because 

1  

00:52:48

That's why I didn't say anything specific because there are so many, 

0  

00:52:51

The different ways that it can be. I mean, just like a lot of people in this country, it's you have money, you can get out of it. I mean, that's how a lot of people see it. And if anybody knows anything about Robert Durst and his trial, which if you, don't such a, such an interesting case, and there's a docu series called the jinx, that's very good. But I mean, he got away with a lot of things because his family is one of the most wealthy families in New York city. And so, you know, it's unfortunate, but I mean, what this attorney is saying in this case, unfortunately, is no different than what an attorney would say today. 

0  

00:53:38

And that's sad. 

1  

00:53:40

Yeah. And I mean, that, isn't, it isn't always the case, but it still does have does. 

0  

00:53:48

And that's unspeakable. Like that should not be it's ridiculous. 

1  

00:53:55

And I'll say one good thing is it has changed that you do get a lawyer more quickly. You do, you know, I have, you can get outlook defender. Yes. I was going to say, I have people that I'm close with that have been that public defender. And it's so funny. I have one of my close friends was a public defender and I went to, I was running errands and happened to be somewhere that I could pick up pictures for them. And that I was picking them up and the person was like, well, what are you getting? You know? And I told them, and they were like, w what all were they? 

1  

00:54:37

And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. And then they looked it up and they were like, oh, where are you getting this? Eight by 10? And I was like, they're in court. I can't get in touch. And they were like, oh, what do they do? And I said, well, public defender. They're like, oh, I'm putting in there anyway, they're on the right side. It was so funny. I was like, well, it turned out they didn't order it. But he was like, we just won't throw it away anyway, on they on the right side. So, but yeah, I mean, today, they, you know, they didn't have the public defender. 

0  

00:55:03

I love public defenders that you are. If there is anybody to say you were doing the Lord's work as a public defender, it is, you were, it is thankless. You are not making it well, but it's not really 

1  

00:55:16

Thankless. It's really not. I mean, maybe I'm saying 

0  

00:55:19

From other people, other people outside, not necessarily from your clients, I'm saying from outside perspectives, like in cases where DHR is involved or for people who don't know child services, people look at the public defender as the bad guy. And it's like, they're, this job is so much harder than you could ever imagine this also thing, guys, you're a public defender. You also don't have control of how many cases you have. Yeah. I mean, sometimes they just keep pushing. 

1  

00:55:53

I have close friends that are, that are public defenders too. And that's, that is hard. Oh my gosh. That is a hard job. I, 

0  

00:56:00

And it's in his cases that as a public defender, because you don't have, and none of this is on a tangent, but this is something that Leah and I both are passionate about when it comes to the subject because of different things in our lives. Sorry, guys, that's clear that that's the research is so she's the research assistant. She's come to see how are moving along over here. All her points are covered. She wants to make sure that her research was put in properly. So, but yeah, not to get off on a tangent on this, but Lee and I, you know, we're very, when it comes to the court system, we're very passionate also about public defenders and people who are in those positions, district attorneys, different things like that, that your job is so hard. 

1  

00:56:50

Yes. So they see, they hear 

0  

00:56:54

All of it and don't have control over what cases you really take it. It's not, it's not like, you know, a private attorney who you can go, oh, I'm not trying that case. You can't, you know, you, you took an oath to defend. I mean, just like a doctor takes an oath. You know, they take the Hippocratic oath to not harm a pate. You know, it's the same thing. And it's just, it's, it's unfortunate that a case that is an 1805 can still pull commonalities with the court system today. 

1  

00:57:32

I am so happy that I can say that. Excuse me, Claire really wants to talk. She is all up over my microphone. There have been improvements since then. Yeah. I'm so glad to be able to say that. Well, no justice system is going to be perfect. I'm very happy to say that there have been improvements in law enforcement and in the justice justice system as a whole. 

0  

00:58:05

Yeah. I mean, nothing's going to be perfect. And it's in, there are things that people who you can't make things there's going to be a bad apple in, in everything. And you know, there's going to be guys, sorry. Claire has decided she is going to be the center of attention for this episode. She could be Irish. I don't know. I don't, I don't know what her passion, this is a passion project for her. I guess she's demanding attention. And she's such a funny cat too. She does not, she's not one that likes attention or being touched. So the fact that attention's not on her is obviously real big issue right now. 

0  

00:58:49

So anyways, back to our case, Claire, can we, can we go back? Are we good? We have, okay. I think we have permission now, but yes, like we said, there's bad apples in every situation, there are things that do need to be reformed, that there are changes that do need to be made there. 

1  

00:59:08

And the systems are always changing and growing and me things are always coming up. Yes, 

0  

00:59:14

Always. And it's just, it's, it's not a job I'd want to do. I certainly, but I want 

1  

00:59:22

To turn off or 

0  

00:59:25

Yes, that is one good thing about our day jobs is that we don't take them home. Nope. Even though Leah works from home, she can close it in her office. Yes. 

1  

00:59:34

My phone calls. Do you come to my phone and still answer the phone usually, 

0  

00:59:41

But so yes. So back to off on our tangent rabbit trail, Edward gold, who was the main attorney for daily declined to address the jury after Blake speech, because he said, quote, the evening has far elapsed. 

1  

01:00:02

So he sounds a little pompous. 

0  

01:00:05

So out of the four men quote, defending Halligan and Daley, only one of them directly addressed the jury. Just one, which is just insane to me before the jury was dismissed for deliberation, judge Sedgwick, essentially commanded that the jury come back with a guilty verdict, which is what we saw in lovey weeks' trial as well. Remember, they went off and he basically said, this he's not guilty. So don't say that he, you know, there's not a case, there's no evidence. So this is apparently this was common practice. 

0  

01:00:46

Back then he Sedgwick stressed the importance of the testimony from the 13 year old boy said, quote, if you believe this witness gentlemen, you must return a verdict of conviction. And yes, he said, gentlemen, because this was a time when the only people on jury were going to be men 

1  

01:01:08

Because they were the only ones competent enough to make such a decision That was said with sarcasm, just in case it's not raining. 

0  

01:01:18

Exactly. The judge went on to say that the boy's testimony had always been consistent, which was a lie. And the trial itself lasted from 9:00 AM to 11:00 PM. 

1  

01:01:34

At least it wasn't two 

0  

01:01:35

Days. I know after only a few minutes, the jury came back with a verdict of guilty for both men. So is it five minutes? It didn't say how many minutes they just said a few. So the following day, the men were sentenced to be hanged by the neck until they were dead and their bodies to be dissected. And Anna . So basically use them as autopsy practice. 

1  

01:02:03

Okay. Here's my question. That is that it's very sad, but we didn't know. That was the, when they say hang by the neck until dead. I mean, did they like sometimes say hang by the neck until like they were gurgling and then cut it. I mean, what they had to say until debt? 

0  

01:02:22

I think honestly, I do think that in, in a lot of cases, what some people will see if it's not done correctly. I know there had been some times when they would cut the person down because it's, this could get a tad graphic for a second guys. So sorry. So when someone is hung, the mechanism of action for it is that your neck is broken, which then severs, you know, your spine. Exactly. And so if it is not done properly, 

1  

01:03:00

You have a life, life of misery. 

0  

01:03:02

Well, you don't have a life of misery, but your death is very, very slow if that's not what happens. So, and a lot of times when executioners would see that the hanging did not go the way it should have that the news was not placed properly or something like that, they would cut them down out of passion, I guess, for compassion for that person. And so I think that was an issue in some places where that would happen. 

0  

01:03:42

And yeah, I mean then what then, what do you do? So unfortunately, I think they had to put it into law that it had to be pained by the neck until death. Like they must be there cause yeah, it's, it's a difference of a death by just force or basically by suffocation. And that can last for several 

1  

01:04:18

Gotcha. Like this hanging gold role, but still it has to be a hanging. So it was just curious, you know, why that was put in there specifically, 

0  

01:04:27

I've heard of a few times where that has happened to people, but I believe they were just re hanged again. But you know, I also think too, there could be some pushback from people who could have been like humanitarians who were like, this is wrong. We can't. So I think it was kind of like once we take the, 

1  

01:04:51

The first 

0  

01:04:52

Step yeah. Once we take the floor out from under you, that's it like we're, you know, this is, it could be wrong. Maybe don't know that's what I've seen before. And that's what I've researched. 

1  

01:05:06

Just very curious about that particular. That's like, there's a phrase they use in the news all the time 

0  

01:05:17

Shot to death. 

1  

01:05:19

Yeah. I shot and killed. I understand shot me, shot to death. I mean, you know, because just because you're shot doesn't mean that you've been killed, but there's another one that seems silly to me. Hm I'll I'll remember it after we're finished. 

0  

01:05:39

I don't know. My wonderful college professor was the one that always told me to never say completely destroyed because destroyed means that it's not there. So anytime that anyone on the news or in a show says that it's completely destroyed. I cringe because it's repetitive. It's like when you order a chai tea latte, you should just be ordering a child latte because chai tea. So again, weird things that, that I have issues with. 

1  

01:06:13

Okay. I'm sorry. I just, I was curious. So 

0  

01:06:15

A local paper reported the scene in the courtroom that day saying daily seemed to be in some degree agitated and immediately after the sentence was pronounced, fell upon his knees, apparently in prayer. But Halligan who previous to the trial was by many, supposed much the least criminal of the two exhibited stronger marks of total insensibility or obstinance and hardened wickedness that in often witnessed the men wrote a letter to father. I believe it's Sharis. He was a prominent Catholic priest in new England. 

0  

01:06:55

And they said, quote, if we are not guilty of the crime imputed to us, we have committed other sins. And to expiate them, we accept death with resignation. We are, salicious only about our salvation. It is in your hands, come to our assistance. 

1  

01:07:15

So like asking him to come here, then the fashion. 

0  

01:07:19

So 

1  

01:07:20

Final rights, that kind of thing. 

0  

01:07:22

So the father came and he made the journey to the men and arrived a few days before their execution in June of 1806. His arrival to the area was not welcomed. And the hatred of Catholics in the area was so strong that father Shavera couldn't find a place to stay in the area. He stayed in the prison for a few days until a local man, Joseph Clark accepted the priest into his home. Clark, 

1  

01:07:51

I wouldn't accept a priest into their home. That's just 

0  

01:07:55

Silly. Clark was criticized and despised by many people for even taking the priest in over the next few years, Clark's wife died and his house was hit by lightning and burned to the ground. And the yeah, and the towns, people were satisfied with the terrible events. And they said that it was the wrath of a vengeful God, for him taking in a Catholic, oh my gosh. So on June 5th, 1806, 15,000 people traveled to north Hampton to witness the execution of James Halligan and Dominic daily. 

0  

01:08:35

The population of the town at that time was only 2,500. So, you know, just, just another, just wow. Bringing everybody. It's fine. Father's Ferris heard the last of the confessions of the men before their death. And the priest asked the high sheriff of Hampshire county. If the two men could each have a razor because they wish to die clean shaven. So this was apparently something that these men like shaved often. And so, yeah, it's, it's interesting because the priests had to promise to watch the men and stated that they would not take their own lives with the razor before their scheduled execution. 

0  

01:09:20

The sheriff was hesitant because he had a crowd of 15,000 people outside waiting to see an execution. I mean, they wanted their entertainment, but the sheriff agreed. And under the watch of father, Sharis the men shaved for the last time, there was an odd custom in 1806 before executions. It was common for the prisoners to go to a church where they would hear their eulogy before their execution. But the amount of people in the town that day didn't allow for the men to go to a church in town. And the service was held in the meeting house. Instead, this is the same meeting house. 

0  

01:10:01

The men were sentenced to death in just a few months prior to a very healthy place for them. The windows were taken down. So people outside could hear the church service as well. A minister from the towns stood to deliver the funeral address for the men. But father Sharis relented and said that as the clergyman for the two men, he should be the only one allowed to speak good for him. It gets better. Do we like it? And we like father. Yes. Okay, good. I think we love him. Good. Good, good, good, good. He, he definitely, this is a speech for the books. Good. So father Shavera began the sermon saying quote or writers are usually flattered by having such a numerous audience. 

0  

01:10:48

But I am ashamed of the one now, before me who are there men to whom the death of their fellow beings is a spectacle of pleasure and objects of curiosity. But especially you women, what has induced you to come to this place? Is it to wipe away the cold dance of death? Is it to experience the painful emotions which this scene ought to inspire in every feeling heart? No, it is to behold the prisoners, anguish to look upon it with the tearless eager and longing eyes. And I blush for you. Your eyes are full of murder. You boast sensibility, and you say it's the highest virtue of women. 

0  

01:11:29

But if the suffering of others affords you pleasure, and the death of a man is entertainment for your curiosity, then I can no longer believe in your virtue. You forget your sex. You are a dishonor and a reproach to it. 

1  

01:11:43

It dishonor on you does <em></em> 

0  

01:11:48

So, oh, he's not done. Surprisingly, all of the women who were there left, they were done at three in the afternoon, the two men were taken to the gallows wear daily, Dominic daily, read a prepared statement before his execution. And he said, quote, at this awful moment of appearing before the tribunal of the almighty and knowing that telling a false hood would be eternal perdition for our poor souls. We solemnly declare we are perfectly innocent of the crime for which we suffer or any other murder or robbery. 

0  

01:12:28

We never saw to our knowledge, Marcus Lyon in our lives. And as unaccountable as it may appear, the boy never saw one of us looking at him at or near the fence or any of us, either leading, driving, or riding a horse. And we never went off the high road. We blame no one. We forgive everyone. We submit to our fate as being the will of the almighty and beg of him to be merciful to us through the merits of his divine son and our blessed savior, Jesus Christ. 

1  

01:12:59

And he was not lying. 

0  

01:13:03

So the statement then was given to the high sheriff and then Dominick Daley and James Halligan were hanged. Wow. So that means a lot considering they wanted fathers Ferris to come there and said, we want you to be here because while we did not do this, we have other sins that we want our, we want to plate. And so for them to then get up on a platform 

1  

01:13:29

After they have done their confession 

0  

01:13:32

And say, we did not do this. 

1  

01:13:36

Y'all y'all have said y'all was sitting us test to death and you know, Hey, we're going through with it, but we've already done our confession. Yep. 

0  

01:13:44

And we did not do that. Hey, 

1  

01:13:46

By the way. 

0  

01:13:48

So it's yeah. At the turn of the 20th century, a historian, James R Trumbull, not any known relation to John Trumbull, who was the famous painter who painted a lot of the founding fathers portraits and stuff like that. He alluded in some writing to a deathbed confession of the murder by a Hampshire county man, which said quote years afterward on his deathbed, the real murderer of the man acknowledged his guilt and vindicated to late the innocence of the lads who were executed for the crime. 

0  

01:14:34

So it's popularly believed that the deathbed confession for the crime that, you know, Halligan and Daley were executed for was, are you ready for this? Because I don't think you're ready. It's a little 

1  

01:14:49

Boy when it 

0  

01:14:52

Was made. So the deathbed confession was made by the uncle of the 13 year old boy. 

1  

01:14:59

I knew a little boy was involved. Somehow. I knew he was because he said he didn't hear a gunshot and there's no way he didn't hear a gunshot. There's no way that he wouldn't have heard it. 

0  

01:15:09

Yeah. So yeah, it's believed it was all that did it on St. Patrick's day in nineteen eighty four, a hundred and seventy nine years later, Massachusetts governor Michael du caucus proclaimed the innocence of daily and Halligan and issued an official exoneration for the two men. 

1  

01:15:32

Little late 

0  

01:15:34

That always aggravates me. I got understand the sentiment and I understand that, but it's just like, oh, okay. What does that do now? I mean 

1  

01:15:46

That doesn't give the kids their daddy 

0  

01:15:47

Back. No, I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't do anything. It doesn't give any justice to the person who actually did it. They lived, they lived the rest of their life. I mean, it's just crazy things like that. That always, I just, I go, huh? 

1  

01:16:01

Yeah, really. I mean, you know, think about the Y that lost her husband and then had to figure out how to raise her family. You know how many times 

0  

01:16:13

They had one, he had one child, a wife, his mother and his brother. 

1  

01:16:19

I would say that, you know, there's a whole like family. 

0  

01:16:23

You just, I mean, you just destroyed a family. And I always wonder people who falsely accused someone else. You live with yourself. Exactly. How do you go through knowing your accusation? One executed two men. Okay. 

1  

01:16:44

I don't even that got a little bit of trouble and had to pay some money. Like they die. 

0  

01:16:50

But even if that, even if you're not executed for something, if you're accused of something that you did not do, how does the person who accused, how do you sleep at night knowing that the words that came out of your mouth 

1  

01:17:09

Destroyed 

0  

01:17:10

The life of someone else. I don't understand. Many other 

1  

01:17:14

People made such a huge impact. Like what kind of impact did it have on the kid of the, the dad? You know, how many, what kind of an impact, like did it impact visibility to get an education? Because they had to go into a trade because dad wasn't there to make money. Because at that time you had to buy an education. You didn't get a free education. You know? I mean, 

0  

01:17:42

It's very frustrating and so far re and for, and for the main person who is accusing you for it to be their family member who actually committed the murder, you were perpetuating a cycle of prejudice just towards the hours. Just like his attorney said, someone's murdered. You look around for an Irish man. Don't let that be your legacy. Absolutely. And that is exactly what happened. And it's so frustrating. Absolutely. And it's, it's crazy. 

0  

01:18:24

So that's episode seven guys. Thanks for sticking in there with us. We know we had some tangents today. We had some interruptions by Claire who she's napping now and does not care. She's quite happy. So thanks for sticking in there with us this week, it's been been a tangent than a rabbit hole, but we appreciate y'all sticking in there with us. Follow us on Instagram at one nation under crime and on Twitter at AU in USI pod. If you love our podcast, as much as we do, please follow us on your preferred podcast platform and recommend us to everyone. 

0  

01:19:11

And if you feel like it, please leave us a five star review. And if you leave a comment with it, somehow it means more. I don't understand algorithms that we like we do. So, and we love to see what the algorithms, the comments, the comments we love to see, you know, the things that you all love about the show. It's it's been a lot of fun. Yeah. We do have a Patrion. If you would like to help with the cost of making and hosting the show, you can always donate, just search for one nation under crime on Patrion. If you have a question for us or a story you want to tell us or comment, you can email us@onenationundercrimeatgmail.com. We love to read them. 

0  

01:19:51

We will respond. Also, if you message us or talk to us on Instagram, we'll talk to you back. Don't worry about it. We would, yeah. We would love to hear from some of you, especially our international listeners. Absolute I'd love to know where, where y'all are from how'd. You hear us. Of course, also our American listeners as well. I don't know how y'all found us all the way in Washington or California or in Rhode Island, but hello. We love you. Thank you guys for listening to this week's episode of one nation under crime, we will see you here. Same time, new crime next week. And remember there isn't always Liberty and justice for all. 

0  

01:20:36

We will see you guys next week.